Micing stage for musical

[adamantiumxt]

Were doing a musical (grease) for the first time in years at my school in a few weeks. I have headset mics the main actors, but I'm not sure how to fill in sound for the chorus and less important actors. Previously a few c1000s have been used hanging straight down above the centre of the stage however this was pretty pointless as they were not angled towards the actors, and a lot of the action happens on the front. We have one truss hanging about 3m away from the front of the stage and I was thinking about hiring some shotgun mics to hang from there to pick it up but have just read some negative opinions on using shotgun mics like this. I have one audio technica boundary mic, however this seems to pick up way too many footsteps. Any ideas on how to do this?

[Stuart91]

Try putting some soft foam underneath the boundary mic, that'll tame the footsteps some.

[sandall]

Having tried slung mics (as you say, pointless) & cardioids on No.1 FoH bar (too far away) the people doing sound for our local musical & light opera groups have all settled over the years on 4 or 5 short shotguns at about toe-level, as close to the stage front as possible (usually fighting for space with the band), angled up at about 40 degrees. Apart from the odd concealed spot-mic or (if really desperate) lav for the seriously weak singer, this works fine for light opera (mics should never be needed for "proper" opera).

 

For musicals we added lavs for the principals (& the less vocally-gifted), clipped in the hair or taped to the cheek, (personal mics should be heard, never seen).

 

They only times we will use headset mics is for small children, where the need to hear the little darlings overrides any aesthetic concerns about the look, or for presentations & lectures, for the same reason.

 

Remember to keep the reinforcement mono, otherwise voices will "jump" across the sound-stage as people move between mics.

 

E2A: I'm not a fan of boundary mics, but have occasionally had to use them (as Stuart91 says, with foam underneath) on a flat floor, where stand-mics aren't practicable.

 

 

[paulears]

I'm absolutely 100% for boundary mics - and never use a normal cardioid mic, PCC types, which is most of the common ones, do the job so much better.

 

However, the very best will only raise your volume a little bit, and somebody with a headset wins on the volume stakes every time. Blending 10 actors with mics against 10 without just doesn't work. It helps, but if everyone with lines needs to be heard, they all need a mic. Sometimes, if you really can't do this, then you have an unpleasant task - remove the mic from the 'star' with the loud voice who doesn't need one, and give it to the person with the pale pink voice with less lines, because they do!

 

On the performance front. People often say they pick up too much foot noise, and try all sorts of foam solutions that seem to fail - because the mic is actually doing what it's meant to - picking up what gets to it from the sound source, and often the feet ARE the sound source. Sometimes with a bouncy stage there is some direct pickup from the floor, but most times, the thumping sounds are actually the performers feet hitting the ground - which the mics capture perfectly. Sadly, amateur performers frequently cannot sing out - so they whisper, while their feet clump! Lots of producers and directors want west end volume and clarity, without the right kit. A mic on the stage edge can hear far, far too much. Feet, the band, monitor speakers, the already loud singing from that out of tune person - and of course the house PA. Turning them up until they become unstable, then back a bit is the best they can do. They help, they fill out the sound and they contribute to the 'whole'. They NEVER replace a mic close in. Boundaries work great for large choruses, but they are not a replacement for headsets, which is what people always try to use them for.

 

You mentioned downwards facing mics - and they usually fail because what comes out of the mouth is directed towards the audience, not upwards. Their feet, however can be heard, plus all the reflections from the floor. You can get hanging small condensers that can have the mic element aimed with a little wire attachment aimed upstage at people - they can often add a bit, but they're also like the boundaries - what they hear may not be what you want.

 

I'd love to say that there is a cheap solution, but there isn't - more mics is the only working solution - BUT - the success of that, even if you have the budget is a really top notch, on the ball and competent sound op. Far too many times rich schools hire in the right kit and give working them to the person who couldn't sing, dance, act or learn lines - which makes them idea for the technical team in the directors opinion. I own up to smirking once, playing in the band for a school show when they had hired in enough mics for the show, with a decent mixer - hearing the teacher on the phone to the hire company complaining about feedback. The person working it had been told the faders were set last night by the hire company, so don't touch them, and everyone turned on their mic pack on going on stage, and turned it off when the left. They ended up having to pay for the hire company to send somebody to mix, and were furious the professional expensive equipment needed a person to operate it!

[Dave m]

we made some bent bits of perspex with a big enough footprint to be stable into a rear facing angle, and bolted a boundary mic onto it, stage side.

They stick out a bit, but the theory was that they help pick up

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Made-Crown-PZM-6D-Condenser-Microphone-Plexiglass-Boundary-Assembly-/302295810189

 

we had Tandy/Realistic PZMs that were modified to power

[ninjadingle]

I've used C1000's on either side of a pros, with a couple of Samson CM11B's to fill the middle. Get the C1000's just above head height and angle down slightly so they have a chance of getting something, and I reverse panned them to get a little more gbf, plus my thinking was if the actor was SL then he needed more volume out of the SR speaker to balance out. Worked quite well on a secondary school cast (Y7-9) with no additional reinforcement.

 

Don't bother with foam on boundaries, they'll only bounce / move / fall off. Don't be afraid of the high pass filter if your desk has it, or just roll off the bottom end. IMO anything below 250Hz isn't useful in the vocal range, and if someone can get that low they'll have a voice powerful enough to project.

Trial and error is the only real way I'm afraid!

[sandall]

Don't bother with foam on boundaries, they'll only bounce / move / fall off.

Not if you gaffer them down.They will still pick up more feet than voices though :(.

[sunray]

It's been a long tiime since I tried mics at or near stage level, all they pick up is the footsteps, the creaking stage and foldback/monitor speakers. Hanging cardioid mics pointing strait down do the same thing, especially foldback. Placing boundary mics on foam defeats much of their performance in my experience.I use either purpose made hanging mics [like lavs] with the bent wire clips as Paul mentions and aim to get them about 600mm above head height if possible or 451's/8033's on the light truss if it is near enough. Sometimes 451's at head height each side by the proc are useful.Have tried parabolic reflector on the truss too, quite effective but significantly colours the sound.At a recent panto a videographer used cardioids a foot above the front of the stage made with modular stage system. The stage noise was on average 10dB louder than the vocals, fortunately the overheads [and headsets] had been recorded.

[Shez]

Don't bother with foam on boundaries, they'll only bounce / move / fall off.

Not if you gaffer them down.They will still pick up more feet than voices though :(.

I usually use a gaffer triangle (does it have a proper name?) which both stops it moving and provides a little decoupling, not that pcc160s really need that.

[GaryNattrass]

I have had good results with the AT875r mic and find it far better than the C1000.

[taylord]

Can you swap mics between talent during scene changes? If not, boundary’s can be useful. I’ve done shows in the past with 3 pcc’s DS and then 3 rifles further US. Being a good op is the key. Knowing where and when the action takes place so that you don’t have all the mics open at once.

 

Rifles on mics stands off the front of stage pointing up has also worked in the passed, but again being a good op is key.

 

I agree with Paul about the West End levels without every cast member being mic’d. It’s just not going to happen.

[adamantiumxt]

Thanks for all your replies everbody!

 

We have 6 transmitters to use and are buying 9 headset mics, most of which will be kept by the main actors, and a couple will be switched between scenes. However, there will be a few people with just one or two lines who won't be miced.

To clarify, we already have 3 C1000s, an Audio Technica U851R. We can hire some equipment but have a limited budget, I have found a rental place (http://show-works.co...red-microphones) where I can hire a Beyerdynamic MCE86 for £4 a day, and a t.Bone GZ500 boundary mic for £2, among others.

 

the people doing sound for our local musical & light opera groups have all settled over the years on 4 or 5 short shotguns at about toe-level, as close to the stage front as possible (usually fighting for space with the band), angled up at about 40 degrees.

I would try putting shotgun mics at foot level, but unfortunately we have a stage with extendable steps (about 3m long when extended) which we are using for the production, making that quite difficult

 

 

Get the C1000's just above head height and angle down slightly so they have a chance of getting something

As I previously wrote this is quite difficult as the truss is a fair distance out, though saying that, it's just above the end of the extended steps so will be useful for any dialogue on them

 

Once again, thanks for all your input http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

 

[sandall]

the truss is a fair distance out, though saying that, it's just above the end of the extended steps so will be useful for any dialogue on them

In that case I would definitely suggest shotguns rather than cardioids.

[paulears]

In the late 80s, I bought at huge expense, 5 shotgun tubes for the AKG 451s I had. The theatre I worked in lots, had footlights, and 5 short attachments for mics to be attached - 1 centre, then the others spaced. I recovered the cost over 5 years and thought they worked well. Then the floats were removed, and I bought some PCC160 boundaries, second hand, cheap. They were much better than the shotguns I really was impressed with! The trouble with the shotguns was that somebody going left to right would go up/down/up/down/up as they went across the stage. They reached upstage nicely, but were much less effective to people close to them, who were above the polar pattern main axis. When they were all faded up to the same level, they would mix quite nastily and there would be a very hollow, phasey tone to them. Faders that emphasised the centre, with the next pair out lower, and the edge ones at about half minimised this, but of course where less good. The boundaries solved these problems - the comb filtering was much less, they overlapped nicely, and worked for people close and above. They were less responsive upstage - but the boundaries won easily against the shotguns, which sold very quickly on Ebay for sensible money - almost enough to find the boundaries.

 

Using my 'history' I know that I was impressed with the shotguns - recommending them to others as wonderful. Then the boundaries got my support, because they were clearly better. The biggest snag is that feedback is the limiting factor. EQ gives a teeny bit more at the expense of quality, as knocking out problem frequencies is doable. I then wasted lots of money on a rack of feedback suppressors - they did get me a bit more gain. As the fader settings for the boundaries were very much a 'do not exceed this position' setting, the relationship between them remained the same so you could push them, let them honk, and the suppressors gave a few extra mm of fader travel. Eventually you reached the limits of a stable system. Muting the boundaries was noticeable, but the things were really just supportive assistance to the weak people on stage. At first, I was hiring radio systems and had 4, then 6 VHF systems working, loads of mic swapping and at last, volume to get over the band. At some point, I managed to work out that amateur shows in particular would focus their budgets on 'the stars' - even the ones who really could sing were given radios that needed the fader hardly pushed, but the poor girl with the tiny but wonderful voice didn't get one. In the end, I got up to 12, and then gave up, the cost being difficult to recoup before they wore out. Just not used enough to be cost effective.

 

Now you can hire big systems quite cheaply, and there's a tricky decision to be made. You CANNOT do it properly any longer mixing radios systems with ANY kind of distant mic option. Boundaries, shotguns, cardioids, danglers - all can be great but they do not play happily with close mics on the performers. The compromise means some people won't be heard. They also spoil the nightlines, and look ugly - and worse still, shotguns and hand mics on stands look simply unacceptable if you want the show to look contemporary.

 

It puts the sound person in a tricky position. YOU recommended the system, and when the first person complains, it's YOUR fault. The fault is lack of budget to do it properly. Would they put nice costumes on 90% of the cast? Or have no scenery for one scene?

 

Everybody has seen West End style pro shows, and probably touring versions. This is the standard. Miking the majority of the cast (sorry, I cannot use the word micing, as it just grates on me) is a bad option, and shotguns/boundaries are supportive, not replacements.

[tbjhilton]

It's a difficult one. For our annual musical, being a school, our cast can be as big as 70-80 so clearly radio mics for all is not an option,at £50 a unit to hire. However, with a reverberant school hall and a pit band of inexperienced players (read: little awareness of dynamics), we do use radios for principal singers. As Paul says, balancing a few radios against a stage full of floats just doesn't work, but it is all we can do. We try to ensure anyone singing solo has a radio mic, then just nag the kids to sing the ensemble numbers as loud as possible. This year's show (School of Rock) was particularly challenging because of the onstage band, as well as the pit band, meaning for the onstage band numbers we had plenty of unwanted bleed into all the mics. However, for the first time we had a silent pit except kit (couldn't get hold of a decent electric kit) which made a huge difference - exactly the level of guitar I wanted and no more!