Helmets

[Charlotte_R]

Hi all,

 

I've recently taken up climbing and I'm looking to buy a climbing helmet. With my other hat on (pardon the pun) in theatre, I'd like to invest in my own helmet. I'd like to kill two birds with one stone and buy a helmet that's suitable for both activities.

 

I've found the JSP skyworker helmet (http://www.whiterosetools.com/JSP-EVOLite-Skyworker-Height-Scaffolders-Safety-Helmet-Black-AJS260-001-100?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7NeNyJ_d1wIVy73tCh2bPAeyEAQYASABEgJLIfD_BwE) that claims to be suitable for both.

 

Can anyone advise on how good this helmet is, or a better alternative? If you've used it for both hobby and work, how does it fare for both activities? I'm concerned that I'm going to buy a helmet which tries to do two things but ends up doing both poorly.

[ninjadingle]

I'd just buy one for your climbing, and use the ones supplied by your theatre. I appreciate it's nice owning your own kit in this respect, but I'd hope the theatre have a register of their PPE show they can show inspections etc. - if you're using your own kit and have an accident then the theatre could deny liability. You've also got the issue of damage - if a theatre owned is damaged they replace it, if you're using your own are you going to replace it at your cost?

[Simon Lewis]

Sage advice - but Charlotte is involved in amateur theatre....!

I am not sure how the issues of PPE and its provision translate there...

 

[alistermorton]

Sage advice - but Charlotte is involved in amateur theatre....!

I am not sure how the issues of PPE and its provision translate there...

 

We pay for PPE as and when required, but we're reasonably well off as amateur theatres go.

 

 

 

[MarkB]

Charlotte

 

You can do worse than going to talk to the guys at Rock On @ Redpoint in Birmingham. They know their stuff climbing wise and quite a few of them do roped access as a side job. I've got three helmets, one for work, one for trad climbing and one for sport climbing. Different kit for different jobs. Don't forget you'll want to fit a woolly hat under your climbing helmet in the winter!

 

Mark

[cedd]

Tricky question with regards amateur Vs professional in terms of providing PPE. Some of the groups I work with are very "on it" and up to speed, some shouldn't be allowed to set foot in a theatre.

Personally I carry and use my own regardless of if the theatre supplies any. Having seen willing volunteers get very excited at getting to wear a hard hat and then having play fights with short lengths of scaff, bopping each other on the head to see if the hat works, I'm not touching them!

 

From a vary hazy recollection of a conversation on my last work at height course, I believe one of the things to look out for is if the hat has a peak or not. Climbing helmets (apparently) tend not to have them to give upward visibility. More traditional hard hats do.

My own helmet at the minute is a hard hat designed for work at height. It doesn't look all that different but does have a chin strap and only has a very small peak (again, for ability to look upwards). As it's for my own personal use I don't really see a problem in it not being a traditional hard hat with a larger peak. Also it's a better quality one with good venting and comfortable fit. Not all builders' helmets are!

[Seano]

I'm concerned that I'm going to buy a helmet which tries to do two things but ends up doing both poorly.

 

 

Quite possible. You should buy the best lid you can find for climbing, ideally the lightest and most comfortable you can find, without compromising your choice for work.

 

It needs to fit you well and be comfortable first and foremost, that way you're all the more likely to be actually wearing it at the moment it turns out you need it. The more modern, lightweight foam-based designs generally offer better protection from side impact than traditional cradle & shell designs, which could be a good thing if you're looking to protect yourself from swinging in to the rock in a leader fall.

(As opposed to rock/stone fall from above, traditionally the main priority for lids designed for alpine shenanigans.)

 

If you look into this, you will come across two different EN standards: EN12492 (helmets for rock climbing/mountaineering) and EN397 (industrial helmets). Strictly speaking helmets meant for work should conform to EN397, but even the most pedantic of elf'n'safety types ought not to be concerned about this unless they truly have nothing better to do. (And they should *always* have something better to do.)

 

Unless you are welding, working in extremely confined spaces or on/around HV electrical cables (ie: up a pylon), a climbing helmet is perfectly good for working in for all practical purposes. But they are relatively expensive, and the very lightweight comfy ones may also be a wee bit delicate as far as wear and tear is concerned at work. (Also when you go climbing, if you carelessly chuck them in the bottom of your rucksack with your rack on top, so careful now..)

 

If you find your climbing lid doesn't suit for work, you'll find a relatively small upgrade from the cheapest possible industrial lid from Arco etc. (which is what most employers buy in bulk to be abused on site) can make a huge difference to comfort. (And will still be *much* cheaper than your climbing helmet, most likely.)

[IRW]

Sage advice - but Charlotte is involved in amateur theatre....!

I am not sure how the issues of PPE and its provision translate there...

 

 

Isn't there something, somewhere that suggests that the HSAWA applies to volunteers as well as employees?

[Brian]

Surely, no matter what your employment status and no matter what your HSWA status (two different things), you wear a helmet because you don't want to die or to spend the rest of your life having someone else wipe the drool from the corner of your mouth.

[pmiller056]

I help out at a local community theatre.

 

From the legal and insurance perspective, the theatre is a place of work, even if we are all volunteers. The same rights and obligations as a normal employer/employee relationship in paid work still apply. Your employer, even if you are 'working' in a voluntary role must provide appropriate PPE and work equipment for the task(s). The employer (even if a voluntary group) must provide a safe place of work and devise a safe system of work for any tasks required. Accountability for any incident, in the first instance, falls to the management committee of the group although depending on circumstances and nature of any incident, the group as a whole may be held accountable.

 

Training/competence in amateur theatre (both on-stage and back-stage) is another can of worms which is best left for another thread....

 

Peter

[Owain]

'builders' safety helmets usually have attachment points for visors or ear protectors. Climbing helmets might not.

[IRW]

Surely, no matter what your employment status and no matter what your HSWA status (two different things), you wear a helmet because you don't want to die or to spend the rest of your life having someone else wipe the drool from the corner of your mouth.

 

Quite!

[Charlotte_R]

I'm amateur at the moment, but I joined a semi professional theatre a little while back and got my theatre mojo back! I'm now trying to break into the professional world (I've just submitted my CV to various professional theatres in Birmingham).

 

I'm looking at the petzl vertex vent at the moment. It seems to be good for both rock and theatre. But I'll probably try to get to redpoint and have a chat with the guys there too!

 

Our theatre has a number of paid technicians (and I'm hoping to join their ranks at some point), so follow health and safety regulations. It's much better than a lot of organisations I've been involved in in the past. I just thought that it's worth trying to kill two birds with one stone, that's all.

[Simon Lewis]

Isn't there something, somewhere that suggests that the HSAWA applies to volunteers as well as employees?

 

Essentially, volunteers do not come under HASAW 1975, unless they volunteer through / for an employer.

However, volunteers will have a duty, "not to misuse or interfere with items provided for health and safety reasons".

If they volunteer for an employer, then yes - HASAW applies (It shall be the duty of every employer to conduct his undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that persons not in his employment who may be affected thereby are not thereby exposed to risks to their health or safety).

 

If the amateur theatre was part of a community event etc. then apart from common sense provisions, health and safety law does not apply (but civil law might). Useful guidance here.... Organising a voluntary event

 

If the amateur theatre has premises, then legal and health and safety duties will apply, even if the management are all volunteers. More useful advice here....

 

However, as Brian succinctly states, you wear a helmet because you need the protection. I threw in the provision of PPE comment, because if it was an employer then they would need to provide the PPE, since "No employer shall levy or permit to be levied on any employee of his any charge in respect of anything done or provided in pursuance of any specific requirement of the relevant statutory provisions".

 

There - I knew that H&S course would be useful one day... ;-)

 

 

 

 

 

[Seano]

I'm looking at the petzl vertex vent at the moment. It seems to be good for both rock and theatre.

 

You might think so when you try it, but I don't like the Vertex lids at all. Clunky and old-fashioned. Perversely, more so than their predecessors the old 'Ecrin' lids, the 'Roc' and especially the 'Best'.

 

The shell/cradle design is good for falling objects but offers relatively poor side/front/rear impact protection in the event of a swinging fall (or just a plain trip/faceplant on the floor type fall). The shell is, I believe, made in one size only so if you have a small head you might look like a Super Mario mushroom. (If you do have a little 'ed, btw, maybe see if you can find a Kong Spider to try on.)

 

Here's an article you might find is worth a read concerning climbing lids: UKC Clicky. It's a little bit dated now, new models have come out since, but the generalities are still totally sound.

 

Personally, I'm currently wearing an Edelrid Zodiac at work. (Which is a climbing lid with a ventilated shell, so doesn't meet the specs of EN397 regarding welding spatter, electrical discharge and releasable chin strap - doesn't matter a toss for the work I'm doing. Thus far every elf'n'safety type I've encountered agrees.)

 

For cragging, when I do wear a lid it's mostly an old Petzl Meteor 3 (probably ought to be thinking about a new one for next year really). It's lighter and less sweaty than the other one, and might also offer better protection for mostly bumbling about on single pitch gritstone. (I always wear it for the local limestone, at the punter grades I'm climbing at it's a bit chossy and subject to a fair bit of stonefall. Slightly perversely it tends to get safer as it gets steeper. Although... clicky)