Treating Fabric for Flame Retardation

[Jivemaster]

There are several DIY formulations that may improve on the fabric's tendency to burn. In the UK and probably many other places formal legislation requires better than that, and requires an inherently fire retardant fabric like wool serge, wool felt or synthetics like nomex.

 

While a formula found on the web MAY produce some fire retardance there is no way for anyone to recommend it because there is no certainty about how well it may work for formula or method of application reasons. The optimum solution is probably to start with an inherently fire retardant fabric.

 

What sort of licensing regime exists in your location. In the UK you buy something with certificate of fire retardance and keep the certificate safely. Maybe you should try to work to that standard. If you have venue insurance then they will likely want to see such paperwork.

[david.elsbury]

Jehan, what's the situation with insurance in India- is it held by the venue or is that not so common there? Are fire safety officers a thing, could you consult with your local fire department, are there any theatrical suppliers or installers locally who deal with this ?

[kerry davies]

Indian law is Indian law and concentrates on evacuation procedures and "No Objection Certificates" or NOCs. The byelaws on construction of "cinema buildings" are all I can find and they spend half a page and one table on "fire protection" stating;

15.1 Types of Construction

15.1.1 The design of any building and the type of materials used in its construction are important factors in making the building resistant to a complete burn-out and in preventing the rapid spread of fire, smoke .... blah blah.

 

These byelaws have been superseded by the Indian Supreme Court judgement on the Uphaar disaster.

 

The safest thing that any of us non-Indians could do would be to strongly advise Jehan to deal directly with the people who issue NOCs, whoever they may be in his parish. We should also applaud his wish to at least attempt safety measures and wish him good fortune in his endeavours. He might be better off Googling "Fire retardant fabric" or similar and asking them?

[Jehan]

Thank you for cleaning up my mess, oh moderator! Really good of you.

 

Right, so about that:

 

1) The building is already got all its permissions to be a public performing house. They have a main stage theatre 800 seater, and a hall, with a proscenium at the end of it on the 5th floor. Both have come with requisite permissions.

2) We've been utterly fortunate, to be given the hall to run our Drama School out of . We use the proscenium as the student green room and storage area, and the main floor as the teaching space.

3) But now we've lined the sides with black cloth (drawable curtains) and put 3 trusses up for lighting to turn the space into a black box theatre.

 

No NOC's etc seem neccesary for our modifications. The building trustees are familiar with the codes that govern their building and have even provided us with advice on how to go about things.

 

I talked to one of the office bearers today about wanting to trial out the boric acid/powder formula, and asked him about how they treated the blacks etc on the main stage downstairs. .. guess what.. they don't (apart from the act curtain and the film projection screen. (they also have 14 heritage painted backdrops from marathi theatre plays of the 1900's, hanging there in pristine condition. They have all fire clearances and NOCs in place.

 

I think asking us to look at what our law says etc isn't something I can go on, because I'm just thinking about the common sense of wanting to have a space in which things won't go up in flames in an instant. (I've personally fought a fire 15 years ago on a film studio set (one of the soft light boxes went up in flames when its bulb blew and burnt a glowing hole through the butter paper underneath... which was all above a set full of dry hay.. NO fun.) The idea that a piece of paper tells you something is safe... I'd much rather take the treated and untreated fabric and test it out myself so I KNOW that it works personally. I think common sense precautions will be better than the law any day in our case.

 

I'll look into the purchase of the real chemicals, and check out how I'm going to run application of all of it to cloth.

I'll also test the 'homebrew' (which I hope dissolves into a solution and not an emulsion..as that, I'm sure will flake away).

I'm pursuing LED lighting options as well - so I have a lower electrical load and cooler lighting working in the space.

 

Please keep pointing me to experts and places where I can suss this problem out once and for all.

 

Thank so much for the help thus far.

 

Jehan

 

 

 

Indian law is Indian law and concentrates on evacuation procedures and "No Objection Certificates" or NOCs. The byelaws on construction of "cinema buildings" are all I can find and they spend half a page and one table on "fire protection" stating;

15.1 Types of Construction

15.1.1 The design of any building and the type of materials used in its construction are important factors in making the building resistant to a complete burn-out and in preventing the rapid spread of fire, smoke .... blah blah.

 

These byelaws have been superseded by the Indian Supreme Court judgement on the Uphaar disaster.

 

The safest thing that any of us non-Indians could do would be to strongly advise Jehan to deal directly with the people who issue NOCs, whoever they may be in his parish. We should also applaud his wish to at least attempt safety measures and wish him good fortune in his endeavours. He might be better off Googling "Fire retardant fabric" or similar and asking them?

 

On the quantums:

 

By our calculation:

 

For 1 Liter of Water its 60 Grams of Boric Powder and 50 Grams of Boric Acid (powder).

 

The calculations on the MIT (students!) paper were in Pounds and Gallons, and was to make a 12 Gallon batch 45.72 liters.

 

Again, I wouldn't put my name on a piece of paper, nor do I have the resources or ability for going to a lab for certification, but I would run a bunch of tests on a well measured test batch, and see to it that the team follows those instrutions precisely if it fared well in a lit match test. (I'd also look to seeing how long the fabrics remained fire retardant by checking samples over a week, a month, 6 months. etc.

 

I think for the sake of my situation you have to really go with:

He's got nothing to go on in the way of clear cut and correct regulations

He's working it out because he wants to get it sorted.

So now how can he best do it, if all he's got is his own devices.

 

BTW. - Planning to call the local representative for rosco.. who is based in another country, in europe... +49!!!

 

Jehan, what's the situation with insurance in India- is it held by the venue or is that not so common there? Are fire safety officers a thing, could you consult with your local fire department, are there any theatrical suppliers or installers locally who deal with this ?

 

 

One is reluctant to go to the fire department because of issues not to do with knowledge, or expertise, but more to do with renumeration and costs for the 'consult'. While I don't want to tar all public servants with the same paint brush, there's a reputation of give us cause to find fault , and we will until such time as you've taken care of our needs.

 

If it were just me, I mught have naievely done this, and risked and hoped for reasonable and decent men who would advise correctly, but it'd open up my building owners and probably shake up their long established relationships (whatever those are), and I don't want to rattle anyone's cages.

 

Though having said that, I'm going to go back to the building managers and ask them if we should bring the FD in to take a look and see what he says.

 

J

[Jehan]

Flambar or flamebar is another brand name.

 

Even with a commercial treatment like this, applying it properly to the fabric is quite difficult. You have to put the right amount on and evenly coat all areas.

 

Oh how I wish I could find an indian website with this level of detail and information!

 

Flametect C.

 

Ideal for natural fabrics, (Cotton, Linen & Wool), Paper and Cardboard based materials. Also often used on Hay & Straw.

 

This product has high active solids content of 30% compared to around 15% of our competitors products. Which means it goes further and you do not need to saturate the material being treated. This product is water soluble so not for outdoors or weather exposed use. See Flametect Nitro D for that purpose.

 

Available in 3 sizes 750ml Trigger Spray, 5 & 25 litres

 

• Full Certification with every order traceable to A UKAS accredited laboratory. See Report Here
• Produced In An ISO 9001 Quality Assured environment to exacting standards
• Treats up to 15 sq. metres per litre.
• Iron-On Fabric Labels to Identify Fabrics as treated. Feature date and year. Ideal for maintenance and Inspections. Example
• Water based flame retardant. Completely Odourless.
• Suitable for spray, roller or immersion application.
• Dry clean durable 3-4 cycles (No water Injection)
• Can achieve B.S.5867 Part 2 Type B
• Most effective on natural materials or natural synthetic blends.
• Order before 2:30pm for next day delivery.
• It is a non-toxic non-hazardous formulation , that is easy to apply.
• Contract Spraying Service click for details.

Synthetic fabrics should be treated using Flametect Nitro Click here to viewNeed To Know More? Call 0845 293 7770 For Free Advice

 

 

[GridGirl]

Moderation:You've posted this same question in two different places on the forum - we don't like cross-posting very much, it's much better if all your answers are in one lace. I've merged the two topics. Anna (mods)

[Roderick]

In the old days here, the fire officer tried to set fire to a curtain with a lighter. If it went woosh - it failed. If it just smouldered after the prescribed number of seconds, it passed. Now we just produce a piece of paper that says it is safe.

 

I still do that when in doubt about the condition of the fabric, paperwork or not.

Cut a small piece of a seam at the back and light it with a lighter.

Best test ever...

[ontoprigger]

Here is a link to the Flints catalogue page for flame proofing chemicals, there are many depending on what you want to treat, and for a fee I am sure they will ship to India, they have shipped to Australia for me in the past. It will at the very least give you some useful reading and the brand names of the products out there that you could then Google to find someone closer that may stock it.

 

http://www.flints.co.uk/pdfcatalogue/W1.51-1.52_Flame_Retardants_2015.pdf

[Jehan]

Great news!! I found a dealer in New Delhi who has something called Flame Shield.

 

US company, comes with all the certifying paperwork, and we did a test burn today and the cloth went from Cloth to charcoal with no fire inbetween. Held a candle to it for 2 mins.

 

Costs us 400 Rs (INR) per liter, each liter does 100 sq feet of fabric, more if the fabric density is low.

 

Thrilled.

 

No home cooked remedies. Thank you ALL so much for all your advice on the topic!

 

www.mags-novel.com is the dealer for all of you in India or South Asia.

 

Jehan

[david.elsbury]

Excellent news :)