Fader replacement / X32 vs M32

[Alec]

So, in choosing between the X32 and the M32, the most significant factor for me would be the expected fader reliability & life improvements in the M32 (the pres are not an issue, as we'd be using external stage boxes).

 

So, how much of an issue would this *really* be with the X32? And, in the case of failure, has anyone had experience of fader replacement on an X32? If it's easy enough, then I think I'd be happy to go with that. But I'm struggling to find anyone with experience of what happens if/when stuff does break out of warranty.

[pete10uk]

I was speaking with a sound guy recently, his company owns a number of x32's both for hire and installed in venues.

 

I was quizzing him on the x32 as I've always seen behringer as quite cheep and nasty, but do serve a purpose, I do think that the build quality on the kit brand. I do have some of their kit and what I do have is very reasonable build wise, you can tell that pots and buttons are lacking in quality but they are normally ruggedly housed.

 

I'm not that willing to forgive the cheap name they have spent so long building up and spend a lot of money on a desk, just because they have the right price.

 

I asked how he found them? The answer was its an amazing desk in terms of functionality but the build quality is crap. They have a number of desks that have fader faults and they can't find anyone interested in fixing them. I had a play with the desk he had there and even looking st it I could tell that it's something I would never buy. He said you could make a fortune fixing them if you could do it.

[S&L]

I own a recon model (have done for 18 months with full 3 year warranty) and have worked on others for 2 and a half years.

so what's the real story?...

well I haven't had a single problem with any console I have worked on, including my own thus far.

music group have a stellar reputation for honouring their 3 year warranty so god alone knows why Pete's friend has issues - if he filled in the warranty he should have several consoles repaired - maybe he either isn't registering or isn't talking directly to music group in kidderminster.

is the build quality crappy? no, absolutely not but it would be unfair and downright silly to compare to a £10k console.

 

is it difficult to strip down and self repair?,...not if you follow the strip down videos on youtube apparently. fader replacement looks straight forward but I have to say that it's not a fast process. it would probably take a service engineer half an hour at most to replace 4 faders and me, probably more than an hour. again if Pete's colleague has several and he has a hire business, I have no idea why he wouldn't have done that already, it's very straightforward.

 

are there faults? yes, you have to remember that until this month EVERY correctly registered console was still inside it's 3 year warranty and at this point apparently there have been over 400,000 consoles sold. so there is a lot out there and people are sending things back when they are easy fixes - that's how I got my recon model.

main issues:

1. faders throwing belts on early models. most models come with a dab of glue on the capstan wheel. some early models didn't - it's a fast and easy fix to fitt the belt on and dab a touch of glue on the wheel. a few users have done this themselves, by now most effected have sent theirs back and had their wheels glued.

2. sd cards and ribbons coming loose. not really a fault, they stay where they are usually but there are a number of idiots who don't handle with care. a lot of professional users have a bravado that you should be able to throw anything around, drop it down stairs and it still works - if it's not built like a tanks then it's no good. I always found this barking and always expect anyone working with me to handle gear carefully. it's a silly way to do business but there you have it...if you don't case it and throw it around it's possible for a ribbon cable to come loose. mine has probably worked getting on for a 100 shows in all weathers indoors and out, in a proper flightcase that has been dropped twice - it's been absolutely fine.

3. power supplies - via the wonderful world of facebook I have seen 5 or so reports that the internal power supply has failed on...I think we can be sure there are more out there, but that's a few thousand from a stock of 400 thousand.

4. sticky buttons...deoxit usually sorts the issue. a few early models were apparently cleaned with the wrong fluid and some buttons stuck. most didn't but a few are reporting having to clean theirs now after a few years of use. the new models have rubber buttons now which solves that particular issue - but I do prefer the older plastic buttons.

 

spares - at current market prices, power supplies, screens, faders etc are all available at reasonable cost.

 

expectations... it's a great little console and has without doubt changed what is possible at this price point - I take it to theatres all over the uk and most are used to seeing them roll in and out these days. but they do suffer from some of their users - at the top end, there are 'professionals' who don't use them exclusively, work many other consoles and they don't take the time to learn the peculiarities of the console - they get in trouble because they don't use the right aes50 cable spec, or don't use a ups, or expect too much from wifi. or expect to be able to throw it downstairs - it's a computer for heaven's sake - get a grip.

at the other end there are lots of users who when put in proximity with the all-too-powerful software tend to tick the wrong boxes, not tick the right ones, bugger up the routing and then blame it on the console.

those of us in the middle, looking after our gear and using them extensively tend to be fine with them.

 

what happens if you pick an m32 instead?..better quality casing and hardware, exactly the same software and capabilities. better sounding pre amps apparently. it's measurable and apparently audible under some circumstances. but is it worth paying half again for? not really, unless you have that money to burn.

 

I love that I can go hire and x32 if the worst happens but really I don't know what Pete's colleague is moaning about...they were never designed for hire stock.

and if you think about pete's statement 'I could tell that it's something I would never buy..' it's somewhat elitist and insulting...after all the build quality, performance and expectations are on a par with it's market rivals... it has considerably less issues than it's mackie presonus and soundcraft rivals and is on a par with the allen and heath gear...so presumably Pete thinks the poster has no business buying a console unless he has £6k in his pocket. great if you have that money but obviously it stands to reason that the poster (and lots of others like myself) don't have that sort of money or that spending that sort of money simply isn't appropriate for the productions being undertaken.

So what should the poster do?

well as always it depends on budget and use:

1. it's a budget console and it's a computer - it needs to be looked after. if it's for you and a few others that's fine, if the world and his dog are going to use it, it's not the right console anyway.

2. should he buy an m32?... personal choice but I would pocket the money and use it either for a future planned replacement or for other gear. given the 3 year warranty, at present market conditions you can buy one every 3 years, have nine years full return to base back up, be ten years down the road and still only have spent as much as you would on an LS9. I really fancy an m32R but that's as well as an x32.

3. it's straightforward to maintain, having sold 400,000 spares are cheaper and more readily available than most other consoles.

4. the sales tell you it's own story. 3 years on, it's appearing in every theatre at some point and continues to grow - if it was a complete dog it would be dead in the water. as lots have said, this is not your father's behringer - their support system is formidable. they actively post on most forums from time to time, including here.

5. it's a retail sold console. and that's all you should expect at this price point.

if you do your homework and check through all the previous posts on this forum you will see plenty of people using them and plenty to back up the performance of the console, it's reliability and the performance of kidderminster. In fairness though, I would also say take a look at the qu series, just as good a console, not all the functions but it's very easy for multiple users to walk up and mix on.

[laolu]

Well said, my man. Really, I mean it.

 

:thumbup:

[sam.spoons]

+1 here too. I can't realistically comment on reliability as my X32 Compact and Rack get very light, mostly project studio use (the expected bigger gigs just haven't materialised and I still use my Mackie DL1608 for most live jobs). Everything else said above is right on the button for me too. Huge sales, remarkably low fail rate (according to the big dealer apparently) and great features and sound quality.

[paulears]

It does male me wonder what people actually expect for the money? These desks are amazing value for money. How many computers of the same price are still functioning after 3 years? Of course they will have faults and need servicing? If a PA firm buy one, they get their return much more quickly, and if they have a pile of worn out ones, and can't be bothered to fix them, then perhaps that's still good business. It seems odd to complain about a product that does so much for so little?

[Alec]

So, this would be to go in a typical 250 capacity toilet venue.

 

It will live in situ, and so won't get thrown about. However, neither will it be cosseted by other "engineers". Hence my concerns about resiliency and servicability if needed.

 

Unfortunately, even the budget for an X32 is hard to get this venue to raise. It'd be replacing a GL2400-32 that's done 5 years sterling service.

 

I think the arguments above give greater comfort for staying at the X32 level, after all, you could nearly buy two for the price of the M32.

 

Helpful feedback from folk - thanks.

[kurzweil_dude]

I know of one X32 that had screens and faders die within 6 months of new. One that hasn't had an issue in 2 years of service. One M32 that arrived with one of the input bays not seated right thus generating alot of noise across its respective 8 channels, and another that had a fader die on its first gig (with me!)..

Its pot luck with both desks In my experience. Buy new from somewhere like Thomann and take advantage of the 3 year warranty. TMGs support and service is also good, as already mentioned. Engineers are used to and expecting to see X32s on the toilet tour circuit now, and are less bothered about them than during the first few months of them cropping up.

All I'd say is keep the GL and its outboard in a cupboard somewhere handy for a while... incase you do end up having a N32 die and sending it off for repair.

[michaelyallop]

So, this would be to go in a typical 250 capacity toilet venue.

 

It will live in situ, and so won't get thrown about. However, neither will it be cosseted by other "engineers". Hence my concerns about resiliency and servicability if needed.

 

Unfortunately, even the budget for an X32 is hard to get this venue to raise. It'd be replacing a GL2400-32 that's done 5 years sterling service.

 

I think the arguments above give greater comfort for staying at the X32 level, after all, you could nearly buy two for the price of the M32.

 

Helpful feedback from folk - thanks.

 

We had a GL3300 which our X32 has replaced. It is used in a very similar situation to yours, in the it is a 300 seat theatre, not getting moved a great deal so sits in situ. I have to say I have loved it so far. I have used both the analogue inputs and the AES50 too with no faults, apart from user error ones of course.

 

In regards to sound quality difference, someone else on here posted a link to a German website, in English, where they did a side by side recording with an X32 and M32. They then uploaded the audio files and side "judge for yourself'. To be brutally honest, there was no difference. We use a Nexo PS10 with subs system and there was no noticeable difference between the tracks. Maybe if your using a 10kw plus rig there maybe some difference.

 

I will try to find this link and amend it to my post.

 

I really do think that there may be a bit of brand snobbery involved here, in all honesty I was one of them until I had to use ours, and now I am a convert.

 

 

 

 

Here is the link. It was actually on our rival website gearslutz... ha never mind.

 

https://hannesmottl.wordpress.com/

 

 

[Alec]

I have no problem at all with what the X32/M32 does, nor its workflow/sound. The question is all about resiliency, not quality.

 

I'd love to lose the multi, but the additional cost of a couple of stageboxes is a barrier. On the other hand, of course, if we got an S16 plus an X32 rack, then we'd effectively have a backup mixer in place, albeit with no control surface. But the show could at least go on, mixed by tablet.

 

I'd really like to get rid of the GL2400/outboard/multi. But, if the analog desk was being kept just in case, then all the rest would have to stay.

[DrV]

and another that had a fader die on its first gig (with me!)..

Its pot luck

 

Best technical pun ever, intentional or not!

 

Dave

[Alec]

And, back to the real original topic...

 

I see Thomann selling replacement faders in packs of 5 for around GBP 90.

 

Not too unreasonable, as long as the process of fitting isn't a complete dickabout.

[S&L]

And, back to the real original topic...

 

I see Thomann selling replacement faders in packs of 5 for around GBP 90.

 

Not too unreasonable, as long as the process of fitting isn't a complete dickabout.

 

[Michael Lapke]

I know of one X32 that had screens and faders die within 6 months of new.

 

Dear kurzweil_dude,

 



If possible can you send me the serial number of the X32 so I can look into the exact situation and report back?

 Any of the other issues you have mentioned were very old issues that were addressed early on immediately. 

With hundreds of thousands of X32s in service in all different environments including touring bands, club installs, AV applications, etc. we have had very few issues.

 

I would encourage anyone to give Sweetwater in the US or Thomann in Europe a call and get facts directly from out top vendors who sell thousands of units.


[Alec]

Well, I'm now persuaded that fader replacement on the X32 outside warranty would be neither expensive nor onerous. That, plus a reasonable re-assurement that the X32's early teething problems are now out of the way, persuade me that it's probably the right solution.

 

(Sorry if this sounds like a sponsored comment - it certainly isn't!)