DI Boxes

[Russ]

If you're fortunate enough to find a guitarist with an amp which has a line out, then that should work fine straight into a mixer. You may still want to feed it through a DI box first to balance it, depending on cable runs. I haven't seen many amps with line outs at all, though. I've seen one or two with a DI output included, which is a fantastic idea.

 

Incidentally, I was under the impression that the "EQ" on most guitar amps tends to be simply the response curve of the driver in it, rather than any electronics within it. In which case the line out would sound about the same as a DI would.

 

If I have the patience and the kit, especially for rock/metal, I'd go for both the DI box and the cabinet mike, and that gives me endless combinations to play with if I'm bored, and you can get the best of both worlds.

 

Electroacoustics are usually fine with just a DI, and a pain to mike otherwise anyway. I had an electroacoustic double bass the other day, roll on electroacoustic brass, woodwind, and drums and I could just do away with microphones entirely, isn't that a thought :blink:.

[mac.calder]

If you are doing a school gig you definatly want to shove them through your mixer, preferably straight into the desk, with no amp in the middle (I would suggest almost always using DI's, to remove hiss hum etc) - school/garage rock bands almost ALWAYS have guitarists who think their sound is the most important thing in the world - hence having their amps up FAR too loud and drowning out vocals etc. Since you are the guy who will get ragged on if the sound mix is a load of bull - even if it is due to the guitarist turning up the amp, remove the option from them. If they really want effects, they can buy an fx box and shove it in between.

[david.elsbury]

The DI should have an in and a link out. Take the guitar (or FX pedal out) into the DI, and then thru that out into the amp. That way you're not getting any crud that the amp may put out thru it's line out.

We do this for basses all the time, works great.

 

school/garage rock bands almost ALWAYS have guitarists who think their sound is the most important thing in the world - hence having their amps up FAR too loud and drowning out vocals etc. Since you are the guy who will get ragged on if the sound mix is a load of bull - even if it is due to the guitarist turning up the amp, remove the option from them

True, and the louder they get the louder you have to get with the PA, to balance the sound, and then they turn up again.... it's a never-ending cycle. So do yourself a favour, and get a large pointy stick and someone side-of-the-stage to operate it :blink:

David

[SceneMaster]

I ideally need 3ch of DI but would probably have to get 4 as it tends to come in twos. I only have £30 for this which looks as if it will only give me 2 channels of decent DI but ideally I would need 3 (3 guitarists – the bass which I would just used a bass amp for). Has anyone got any suggestions where I can get a 3/4 channel DI box for £30? I don't want to go cheap skate though £30 is quite reasonable for 2ch but 3 probably pushing it unless I go for tacky which quite frankly would be a waste of money.

[Solstace]

In terms of what can be DI'd, how and why, I think this has been covered nicely in previous posts on this topic.

 

However, when it comes to DI'ing electric guitars, I think we're missing some major points here - I know this is a school band we're talking about here, but the same principles should apply as with any other band.

 

Some backgroud: Sound/music newbies need to realise that "traditional" guitar amplifiers (the ones all the "Stars" use) are not the "short, straight wires with gain" that just about any other amplifier needs/aims to be. They are intentionally built with individual distortion characteristics caused by overdrive, PSU saturation, speaker unit/cabinet response etc etc. It's partly how Fender amps sound different to Marshall or Mesa-Boogie amps, even if the models compared might look and cost pretty much the same.

 

More background: Most guitarists rely on their amplifier to provide both the gain and distortion they need, to help define their own sound. A good electric guitarist effectively plays the amplifier "chain" (including FX) as an instrument, as well as the guitar itself. This is why even the good guitarists won't be happy to play their material at a concert with any amp they're not familiar with - you won't see Slash turn up to a concert for him to be told, "sorry mate, you okay if we use that old practice-amp down there? It's all we could find in the cupboard". It's not just rock stars being rock stars - there are technical reasons for this.

 

So why re-state the known, as I've done above? It's to help explain the importance of the following statement: If you DI from a traditional guitar amp in ANY way, you'll get the signal WITHOUT the high-end damping and other resonances provided by the speaker itself.

 

Therefore, traditional distortion effects built by using either the amplifier's own gain stages or a Boss (or similar) stomp-box will end up sounding VERY harsh, as none of the high-end will have been removed by the speaker. As one mate recently put it, "More buzz than a stirred hornets-nest, and more fizz than a cola factory" - you have been warned.

 

Answer? Use a mic, trust the guitarist - even if you know they're gonna be too loud. If they're any good, they'll appreciate that they need to turn down for small venues etc. If not, they'll end up sounding like any other "school band" and it'll be their fault. End of. Oh and no, there's no amount of playing with a desk EQ that will give you anything even closely resembling a nice guitar sound from this kind of DI setup - even if you are using a Midas console!

 

Now, onto instruments that CAN be DI'd.

 

- Bass (unless the player uses distortion, in which case try Mic AND DI, if you're short on channels, use the one you prefer and drop the other)

Keys

- Pickups on acoustic instruments, including Acoustic or Electroacoustic Guitars, Flutes, violins, Pianos etc

- Other line-level sources such as synths, PC's, DVD's, samplers etc

- Electric guitars, provided:

1) The amplifier "sound" is created by a digital amp modelling/FX unit, such as a Boss GT6 or similar. Pod, Vox and others do make amps that use digital modelling, and line/DI outs on such amps will sound more like a real amp than those on traditional amps.

or 2) You have absolute assurance that the guitar will be played "clean" - no distortion used (very rare)

or 3) You have budget for replacement treble drivers in your FOH system, and want the distorted effects to sound like a mic'd up (and distorted) electric razor!

 

Sorry if I'm being harsh or overly simplistic here - there's just some things in sound life I hate seeing or hearing!!

[Andrew C]

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but one way to lessen the "up to 11 & break the knob off" merchant is to point his cab across the stage. Might just give you a fighting chance...

[SceneMaster]

Ok, what I was saying was use the amps for the guitars as normal then just send them out the PA as well to add reinforcement unless you think this won't work? The amps are run clean most of the time and the people don't mind what amps they use as they are the school ones and they get what they are told to use which are actually big very good quality ones.

 

Just out of interest on big rock concerts ect... (I am really a lampie remember) how are the instruments amplified? Do they use small normal amps on stage which can’t be powerful enough or are the guitars DI. Just I have been at small gigs and the guitars have been DI and it is fine no problems, but I am no really expert on DIs, I can mix mics well for both vocal and instrumental but never done any DIing maybe I should just keep within my depth and mic all the amps up like usual. This could be a problem thought as we only have three mics + a radio mic (not use!!!) in the permanent school stock and there is no hire budget for this. I agree micing is much better for electric guitars as it is the union between the guitarist and the guitar amp and this is the only way to pick up that effect but I really need to give extra power for this gig which I can control. Would the line out form the amp work in principle (not that I think I am going to do it now) with the amps still being used by the guitarist normal then I just send a bit more power out of the PA?

[ojc123]

I do lots of school gigs with a number of bands at each gig.

 

Here's my tuppence worth. I'm with the keep control and so what if the sound isn't perfect school of thought.

 

DI the guitars. If they don't like it tell them to go play somewhere else (if anyone will have them). They may have a tantrum but if you let them plug into their new shiny Marshall with a 4x12 then they'll just drown everyone out. The benefit of control is worth a lot more than the better sound quality of a guitar amp in the hands of most 16 year olds. Put them through FX pedals if you like. A bit of EQ can get rid of the worst of the harsh top end.

 

DI keyboards. same argument although keyboard players are generally less temperamental, usually more musical and are less likely to have a tantrum.

 

I used to take an FX send from the Bass, send it through a channel of the mixer and send it back to the FX return. This meant that when the bass player starts to turn the bass up (as they do) I can turn it back down. Job done!

 

When they grumble that the (insert name of instrument) is too quiet then remind them that the point of a song is that you can hear the vocals. You've mixed it so that's what you can hear. If they don't like it tell them to go play somewhere else (if anyone will have them).

 

As for monitors, before we got a bit more advanced (this will be anathema to real audiophiles) I used to set all my pans to centre then send left to FOH and use right for monitors. The band just had to live with it. They got the experience that the audience was getting and it seemed to work. You have to do what your equipment allows you to do.

 

I use Behringer D120 DI boxes. Cheap, OK (nothing special), and I'm not so bothered if they walk (as things do in schools).

 

Keep control.

[Solstace]

ojc123,

 

Interesting technique for FOH and Monitor mixing - did you not have auxes as found on most desks?

 

SceneMaster,

 

For all the reasons given in my previous post, most live gigs on the "pro" scene will feature guitars miced, possibly DI'd as well for a particular effect. Bass would tend to be DI'd, unless there's a particular reason not to. Keys, samplers etc would be DI'd.

 

Yes, DI'ing from the guitar amp's line-out will work fine in principle - just please don't expect the sound to be either useable or recogniseable. If you must use them, just turn the hi-eq all the way down on the relevant desk channels to take off that nasty harsh top-end I talked about before.

 

I've been known on some gigs to borrow a GT6 or similar to model my own amplifier sounds for precisely that situation. Using a line output into the DI, I've then brought the feed into the mixer, then used the GT6 as an insert effect, making up my own amp model to suit - great fun!!

 

To be honest, I don't think low guitar volumes are really going to be that much of a problem in your gig - your main challenge will be Vocals, keys and anything else on stage that is quieter than a fully-cranked guitar.

 

Finally, Mixing with DI'd sources is no different to mixing with mics - you just need to know how and when to use them :blink:

[paulears]

Solstace is talking perfect sense. Scenemaster - your job as mixer is to make whatever sound the band produce louder, and as good as you can. It isn't your job to tell them how loud they can be - I'll admit, it's good idea, that in your circumstances with poor kit, poor musicianship and pretty well poor everything, may well actually work - but musicians needs to interelate - they actually need things under their control. You, at the back, have no idea what it sounds like on stage.

 

I've got a variax guitar and a line 6 pod xt and despite having great DI possibilities, it needs sticking through an amp. I actually use a wierd one with 2 x 10" drivers and piezo horns with great eq. I like what this sounds like, the DI out from the pod is just not the sound I want the audience to hear. Drop this down a peg or two to cheap guitars and cheap pedals and the sound you get will be awful - for any kind of music. Not a good analogy, but a bit like dumping the par cans and doing the gig with just a couple of follow spots.

[ojc123]

Solstace,

 

We found that the person on the mix hadn't a clue what it sounded like on stage and so our response was to make the onstage sound exactly the same as FOH. Remember we are talking about a school situation where the kit was very, very basic. As I said, this was when I first started and we do it very differently now. We had a couple of mono amps, 4 speakers and an ancient mixer. Can't remember what the mixer had or didn't have. I only remember it didn't have much.

 

(Edit: Ah, it's coming back to me now. The mixer only had a monitor out. So, we used that to control the bass and used the left and right as described.) Not conventional, but it did a job. Just.)

 

Given the initial post (and the apparent lack of equipment) I just thought I'd throw it in. I'm certainly not recommending it as good practice!

[paulears]

back up the thread a bit somebody mentioned that the amp speakers don't playmuch of a role. Have a look on the celestion web site and you'll see in the pro audio section an amazing variety of guitar speakers, all with very different tonal characteristics - DI the guitar and lose everything the speakers do to the sound.

[Andrew C]

Solstace is talking perfect sense. Scenemaster - your job as mixer is to make whatever sound the band produce louder, and as good as you can. It isn't your job to tell them how loud they can be - I'll admit, it's good idea, that in your circumstances with poor kit, poor musicianship and pretty well poor everything, may well actually work - but musicians needs to interelate - they actually need things under their control. You, at the back, have no idea what it sounds like on stage.

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I can't agree. It is your job to make what the punters hear sound right. The nub of the problem here is that the band have no idea what the audience are hearing. As far as the paying audience are concerned it doesn't matter a stff what it sounds like on stage.

 

Mic the guitar as others have said, the amp is part of the instrument; but you do need control of the volume, particularly in situations where you can't just add more amps and cabs to get the Vox over the hero with the axe and the loud pedal fixation. :blink:

[SceneMaster]

Ok, people are saying DI it and others aren’t.

 

So, to summarise if I DI the guitars straight I loose all the effect of the amp + guitar set up. In a school situation this doesn’t really matter but I take the point so I will put the guitars into amps as normal but then if I want to put the guitars out the PA to give volume people are saying to mic the amps. I agree this would be the ideal thing and it makes sense that this is the best way to do it but this is not an option as we have no more mics they are all being used for the vocals (all three of them). So how do I get decent amplication (spelt right?) of the guitars apart from just the amps in this situation? ojc123 seems to suggest it works putting electric guitars into PA (even if it is not quality pro sound this isn't an issue it is a school band(s). I strive for the best quality in every situation I am in though even if the best is rubbish.

 

So really what I am asking out of the three options in this situation which is the best not which is the best in the ideal world or stage ;).

 

A)

Just use the guitars amps and hope it sounds loud enough and that the levels are ok as I won't have any control once the band start playing.

 

B)

Use the guitar amps as normal but take a line out of them into the PA and add reinforcement to the amps (yes it won't have the amp effect, ect...) but this is not really an issue for a school band who don't really know yet how to play their amps as well as there guitars...

 

C)

DI the guitars take the thur to the guitar amp and the output to the PA.

 

Thoughts please... just an A,B or C will do. B-)

[djw1981]

I vote D - set the amps up set a mic - SM57 or similar in front of the anmp and feed that through the mixer - this gives you some control over the amp sound.

 

Firing the amps sideways, or even backwards will reduce the amp spill into FOH.

 

 

 

Ok, people are saying DI it and others aren’t.

 

So, to summarise if I DI the guitars straight I loose all the effect of the amp + guitar set up. In a school situation this doesn’t really matter but I take the point so I will put the guitars into amps as normal but then if I want to put the guitars out the PA to give volume people are saying to mic the amps. I agree this would be the ideal thing and it makes sense that this is the best way to do it but this is not an option as we have no more mics they are all being used for the vocals (all three of them). So how do I get decent amplication (spelt right?) of the guitars apart from just the amps in this situation? ojc123 seems to suggest it works putting electric guitars into PA (even if it is not quality pro sound this isn't an issue it is a school band(s). I strive for the best quality in every situation I am in though even if the best is rubbish.

 

So really what I am asking out of the three options in this situation which is the best not which is the best in the ideal world or stage ;).

 

A)

Just use the guitars amps and hope it sounds loud enough and that the levels are ok as I won't have any control once the band start playing.

 

B)

Use the guitar amps as normal but take a line out of them into the PA and add reinforcement to the amps (yes it won't have the amp effect, ect...) but this is not really an issue for a school band who don't really know yet how to play their amps as well as there guitars...

 

C)

DI the guitars take the thur to the guitar amp and the output to the PA.

 

Thoughts please... just an A,B or C will do.  B-)

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