Seeking Music Suggestions for Sound Level Tests

[sleah]

This will sound shocking, indeed I should take cover from the DJs.....

 

 

 

 

But it may be worth considering installing a sound limiter :o

 

Yes, they are considered evil things - especially when setup badly, but if it's the difference between keeping the license, keeping the neighbours happy, keeping the council happy or risking loosing the license and having a load of bad feeling and constant visits from the council, then it's worth it.

 

Although, as has already been said, you ought to consider if the venue is suitable for loud music in the first instance, doing checks as you have suggested is a good start. :D

[Jivemaster]

If you decide you need a limiter then you have decided that your hall is not fit for the purpose of holding discos. If you then hire for discos it says something negative about your church's Hypocritical attitude.

 

You do hold discos and do it well, or you don't hold discos EVER. Hiring to a party with a disco then setting the sound limit to 73 or 85dB* ruins your reputation.

 

* Both limiter settings I've found in real life, You work it out, at 73dB it sounds as if the bar is empty, and you can't use any amplified sound.

[Electrolytic]

those limiters are archaic, not designed by someone who understands acoustics, and an insult to the industry.

 

 

they just measure an instantaneous peak in noise and cut the power.

humans don't hear in peaks

 

The devices should measure an Leq (level equivalent) over a time period of say 10 minutes, or at the very least a basic average.

 

they also should have co-operated with amp manufactures into a standardised VCA/DCA level control opposed to abruptly cutting the power.

[sam.spoons]

I did work in a venue where we were allowed to use our own system but the mixer output had to pass through their own level control device. Much better than a power cut off device but we still bypassed it http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

[audiomik]

I did work in a venue where we were allowed to use our own system but the mixer output had to pass through their own level control device. Much better than a power cut off device but we still bypassed it http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

Without 'Power Cut' the Drawmer SP2120 'Speaker protector or an equivalent bit of kit from another manufacturer may be a solution?

http://www.drawmer.com/products/protection/sp2120-speaker-protector.php

 

Also without 'Power Cut', the Formula Sound AVC types might also be suitable:

http://formula-sound.co.uk/system-protection-noise-control/

 

This of course would assume that you have agreed external sound levels with adjacent properties to then set these up.

The last thing that you really need is someone calling in the Environment Health people and having as quoted in a post above 'draconian' sound level maximums enforced.

 

Might be worth also contacting your local EHO and discussing any problems which might occur with them.

They have always been very helpful here when approached before a problem occurs and showing them that you have fitted some form of noise control wins many 'brownie points'

 

Hope this assists

 

Mik

[Brian]

I've always thought that the best way to use a limiter is for it not to turn OFF the power to the PA but to turn ON a few kW of halogen floods. No self-respecting DJ is going to want the room bathed in daylight for 5 minutes; the audience will soon make their feelings felt.

[Jivemaster]

Sorry but having made my living from it for several years, a Disco is 4 hours of music of the client's taste played at levels up to 105dB. Once you hire for a disco you accept that and take the money. If that is not what you want then don't take the bookings or the money. No amount of arsing around will get past the fact that you have accepted a disco booking. If you limit the sound level after accepting the booking you are a hypocrite.

 

I used to live next door to a country club/disco, they had a nice country house with an underground bunker for the disco -several feet of earth on top and multiple doors in the exit path, we never heard a sound. BUT the first time they held a disco in a marquee they had the police round and lost their licence.

[Stuart91]

a Disco is 4 hours of music of the client's taste played at levels up to 105dB. Once you hire for a disco you accept that and take the money.

 

One problem the OP might encounter is that other forms of entertainment can be equally noisy, but aren't as clear-cut. He mentions ceilidh bands in his first post, whilst many consist of cardigans and accordions, some are essentially rock bands with fiddles and could easily hit similar levels to a disco. The only saving grace is that there are breaks in the music, and most bands will struggle to have the same bass intensity as modern commercial dance music. However that would be of little comfort to a complaining neighbour.

[Jivemaster]

Yes I agree I've seen a "folk band" of eight -even playing acoustically they would easily top 100dB and you can't reduce the sound by turning their power off! I know another "Ceilidh band" that toured 2K of PA.

 

Realistically it doesn't matter whether it's Widor's Toccata in F or Bach's T&F in D minor or the latest young Cowell Factor star, noise causes nuisance and nuisance is absolute -it doesn't have to be quantified -it costs you compliance measures.

[allanr]

OP responding here:

 

Thanks for the many suggestions and concerns raised - all much appreciated.

 

I've added some comments below to give a bit more info. My own disclaimer is that (in line with many of you) I can only advise those responsible for the 'management' of the hall. However your inputs add weight to the issues that need to be addressed. Apologies if not all responders are included by name (trying to keep this succinct) but thanks all for your contributions.

 

The 'NOWxx' series of CDs / Top 40 are excellent suggestions. I have NOW82 to hand but realise NOW88 is the latest - how time flies! I'll go through it and pick a few bearable tracks and perhaps download one or two from NOW88 to give the impression I'm still cool and 'with it'.

 

 

Sleah ....profanity...

I'll get my wife to check any selected tracks for this - as a retired primary teacher she has a low tolerance level for such words - they just go over my head.

 

Pete McCrea

"radio edits" versions are another good tip - thanks.

 

Jivemaster

".... if your venue isn't suitable for discos then you shouldn't hire it for discos."

Point taken. The dilemma is that hiring out the hall (at weekends especially) has become a valuable source of income for the charity involved. Such bookings are usually for 18th/21st birthdays, wedding anniversaries etc, who are "only going to play a few songs from an iPod" and not disco's per se, but what rolls up on the actual night is another matter. To address this, the centre is engaging supervision i.e. a caretaker for these types of events, with explicit ground rules in the let agreement.

 

"doors and windows......departing guests...."

Yes, all important factors.

 

ghance

Thanks for the specific tracks - I'll check them out. (I like Nina Simone and the Saturdays!)

 

Electrolytic

"once you have established what is acceptable or not, what are you using to quantify that level into a repeatable result?"

 

Oh dear, that's the $64k question. Ultimately it's going to be down to the on-site Caretaker to say "turn it down" (maybe with a "please" inserted), backed up by a reading from a hand-held sound meter taken at the back of the hall (hence the need to establish some acceptable readings). We've looked at various installation sound limiter solutions from the power-kill type thru to the amp limiter type and all have significant implementation limitations, plus they can be overcome by determined hirers. A grumpy, authoritative caretaker seems the preferred solution.

 

sleah

".... it may be worth considering installing a sound limiter"

Yes, if the grumpy caretaker technique doesn't work or immediately resigns.

 

 

Jivemaster

"If you decide you need a limiter then you have decided that your hall is not fit for the purpose of holding discos. If you then hire for discos it says something negative about your church's Hypocritical attitude."

 

My original post described it as a "church-style hall", just to give a rough idea of the setting. It's 11m x 12m, x10m high, 1890's solid stone construction. It is no longer used by the church and is now run as a day care centre by a charity.

 

audiomik

"The last thing that you really need is someone calling in the Environment Health people and having as quoted in a post above 'draconian' sound level maximums enforced."

 

I agree 100%. The challenge with installing limiters including the Drawmer and Formula Sound soft limiters, is that unless there is on-site supervision to ensure it is used, the hirer could just roll-in their own PA system and carry on regardless.

 

Jivemaster

"Sorry but having made my living from it for several years, a Disco is 4 hours of music of the client's taste played at levels up to 105dB. Once you hire for a disco you accept that and take the money. If that is not what you want then don't take the bookings or the money. No amount of arsing around will get past the fact that you have accepted a disco booking. If you limit the sound level after accepting the booking you are a hypocrite"

 

Good point, with no feelings spared. Any sound level limits would have to made clear to the hirer prior to booking acceptance.

 

Stuart91 / Jivemaster

" ...ceilidh bands .... cardigans and accordions" /

"it doesn't matter whether it's Widor's Toccata in F or Bach's T&F in D minor or the latest young Cowell Factor star, noise causes nuisance"

 

Would that be my cardigan you're referring to? I do the sound for the ceilidh band mentioned so have direct control over their levels. We do regular gigs in the hall without problems. But yes, there are dance-breaks and less bass and no compression in the ceilidh music. Oh dear Jivemaster, you've almost convinced me to give up now. No, I think it's worth one more try. Life's never just black or white, more like 50 shades of gray.

[Jivemaster]

If it's already a stone structure then where is the sound going to leak out? You could have the ideal venue for noisy discos.

[Electrolytic]

If it's already a stone structure then where is the sound going to leak out? You could have the ideal venue for noisy discos.

 

flanking transmission

[Stuart91]

Would that be my cardigan you're referring to?

 

Yeah. Do you own a pair of tartan trews as well? ;)

[Just Some Bloke]

[snip] more like 50 shades of gray.

That could be a whole load of different noises reaching the neighbours! ;)

[allanr]

Finally, here's the results of the venue sound level testing:

 

Using typical disco tracks (thanks for suggestions) established that levels above 95-98dB were unacceptable to the neighbours (measurements at the back of the hall - furthest from the speakers). At 98dB and below, it was tolerable, with bass transmission being the main issue. (Electrolytic was correct)

 

Further testing during a live event showed that the audience effortlessly added another 10dB from voice/floor noise, ending up with 105/108dB - well into neighbour aggravation territory.

 

So the pessimistic realists have been proved correct, but at least we now have data to quantify our concerns. So it's back to whist drives and tea dances.

 

BTW a recent local newspaper article suggests that the council are going to trial a new 'noise policy'. They're moving from the 'polluter' always 'pays', to an Australian? policy where a new venue starting up amongst established property has to take remedial action to keep noise within limits, whereas for new-build/converted property beside existing venues it is the responsibility of the developer to mitigate noise issues.

 

Thanks again for all the constructive suggestions.

 

Allan