Strand consoles

[ghance]

Hi guys

 

Have a venue with 2 spaces. Mix programme of music, twirlies & am dram. Need new lighting consoles to run a LED & generic rig in one space and a ML/ LED rig in another.

 

Don't have sufficient funds for Chamsys, Avo, ETC so was about to suggest a couple Zero 88 desks.. Until I noticed the keen pricing on the Strand 200 Plus & 250ML.

 

Anyone used these desks on a theatre show with cues & stuff? Or punching buttons in time to the music or making the conference set a nice shade of corporate blue?. How do they stack up?

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[gibbothegreat]

I have a 250ML, and couldn't recommend it. It's a shame because it could have been a really nice desk for a niche and price band which isn't IMO particularly well served. But it is unreliable and buggy, and worse, Philips seem pretty much to have abandoned it - despite a number of known issues, and a long list of suggested improvements by users, they've done pretty much SFA about addressing these, there have been only 2 updates in the space of a year, neither of which addressed the majority of the big known issues. Worse still, the design seems fatally flawed, in that a number of the suggested improvements - ability to enter text via an external keyboard rather than the dial-and-enter wheel, ability to resize the screen to display fixtures or memories down the lists - can't be implemented because the desk doesn't have enough internal memory http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif yep, that's right, at a time when memory is so cheap it's laughable, they've cut it so fine that there isn't even enough spare memory to accommodate a driver for a USB keyboard.

 

It seems to me that lighting consoles are massively behind the curve compared to sound desks. Look what £2,000 will buy you in digital mixers - X32, QU16 - and then compare that with what that buys in lighting. C'mon Uli, how's bout it - the DM-X32? http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

*EDIT* seems Philips haven't abandoned it, but are indeed struggling with the limitations (of the memory?)

[the kid]

The 200 plus is a horrible thing, IIR you cannot edit subs you have to remove them and rebuild. Same for cues.

[Brian]

The 200 plus is a horrible thing, IIR you cannot edit subs you have to remove them and rebuild. Same for cues.

 

I have a friend who bought one for smaller shows and who sold it on within a few weeks on eBay as they hated it so much. IIRC, one of the major problems was that you couldn't have conventional channels and LEDs controlled on the same fader. You could only put them together on a FX stack.

 

The 250ML looks like a nice desk but, as gibbothegreat says, does seem to have a list of shortcomings.

 

 

Isn't it about time Zero88 came out with a new small desk? There seems to be a great big hole in the marketplace.

[the kid]

I remember something about patching as well. It never seemed to hold it or you needed to do something to get it to hold (oh and to save on a stick you had to have the driver IN the stick, took us ages to work out that bit)

 

TBH Z88 have got the jester range, which might do for the generic, LED room. Depending on units the ML / TL range is still good enough of a small desk at that price. I think it depends on what type of "small" you are hitting

[Shez]

The "stack" functionality on the 200 plus is pretty horrible - it's essentially a glorified chase. You can set it up to run consecutive subs with the crossfaders which is a lot more usable in theory. In practice, in the venue I have to tolerate one in, we have the top row of subs recorded as one-to-one channels to make it quicker to save states (who on earth decided that you should have to change pages between pressing record and selecting a sub to save to?!). As the sub->stack functionality has to start from sub one, it's a no go. And it takes ages to actually save a state.

I'd suggest considering the Z88 ML48. Editing cues with a more budget desk will always be a bit clunky compared to the likes of Chamsys / Avo / ETC but it's far from unusable.

[alistermorton]

I reckon there's a (possibly quite small) hole in the market for something simple, inexpensive, self contained and not much bigger than the old strand GSX but with the ability to drive intelligent fixtures. The Jester range isn't far off, but maybe something slightly physically smaller?

 

Actually, thinking about it, don't Martin and Jands do some quite small self contained consoles? Not sure how easy they are to program, of course.

[ojc123]

We had a 200+ and I hated it with a passion. Everything seemed circuitous and not at all intuitive. Even intelligent students who were interested in lighting and who were 'digital natives' couldn't get to grips with it. Saving shows was always a bit of a fingers-crossed moment; it was very unpredictable about USB sticks. I had a couple of ancient USB sticks which it would read. Newer sticks operated less than 50:50. When it had to have a repair we returned to our old analogue desk with generics only and the students preferred it. I couldn't recommend it.

 

We now have a Jester ML24 which is much easier to use and does stacks and chases easily. The students have taken to it so much more effectively. I've had much better support from them than from Strand. Saving and loading shows is easy. Altogether a better experience. I've used it for a few shows now and it's so much more user friendly than the 200+.

 

I can't say the Jester is the best but it's infinitely better than the 200+.

[gibbothegreat]

Actually, thinking about it, don't Martin ... do some quite small self contained consoles? Not sure how easy they are to program, of course.

 

Even their entry level model is around £4,000, and you'd end up paying at least half as much again to get a usable amount of submasters. How is it that prices are so misaligned compared to digital mixers? Is the market for the latter SO much greater?

[alistermorton]

TBH I wasn't sure of the street prices. The Z88 prices are pretty good, it has to be said, I think something like the 24-ML but shrunk a bit and a bit cheaper would find an even biugger market than they already have - compete(ish) with the small strand consoles on price but beat them on functionality and support.

 

The old strand consoles were dead easy to use. Something that easy, but in a more modern package would be a killer. One of the main criticisms I've heard leveled at Z88 consoles from people raised on old school Strand is when it comes to going back and editing the cues, subs and palettes.

[ghance]

Oh dear.. does seem to be a consistent "bad thing" message. such a shame for a much loved brand.

 

ETC Smartfade ML doesn't seem to offer anything over the Jester.

 

Chamsys doesn't offer anything below the MQ40 unless we bundle a cheap laptop with mini wing.. at which point the Jester ML is just as competitive & probably more suitable.

 

Jands have the Stage CL which looks good on paper.. but have no personal experience of the product.

 

So what do we reckon? Jester ML24 or TLxtra maybe on the smaller LED stage, and say a Chamsys MQ40 in the larger space? Rather not mix brands for ease for training, but I can't see simple way round it.

 

Cheers

 

Gareth

[gibbothegreat]

TBH I wasn't sure of the street prices. The Z88 prices are pretty good, it has to be said, I think something like the 24-ML but shrunk a bit and a bit cheaper would find an even biugger market than they already have - compete(ish) with the small strand consoles on price but beat them on functionality and support.

 

The old strand consoles were dead easy to use. Something that easy, but in a more modern package would be a killer. One of the main criticisms I've heard leveled at Z88 consoles from people raised on old school Strand is when it comes to going back and editing the cues, subs and palettes.

 

Couldn't agree more - a Gemini with intelligent fixture capability is exactly how I've described my ideal console. That utter simplicity and consistency of logic seems to elude all the manufacturers these days,

[top-cat]

I know I always say this but do you have an objection to USB wings?

 

It's just in the value for money territory, you can't beat chamsys USB offerings. Team up a PC wing with Dell all-in-one and you have a very powerful and yet compact moving lights console for within £2000. Bigger screen than MQ40 and built in wireless networking too.

 

If it's a multi use space and you're concerned about people helping themselves to the computers or use in the office, I can recommend well priced flightcase manufacturers who could build you an enclosure with VESA mount to keep it all permanently plugged up for a couple of hundred.

 

For permanent install I think the case for USB products is even stronger than for touring and peoples reluctance to take them up is based on an outdated and unfounded belief that a computer bolted into a console shaped box is inherently better than one not. And this is just not true.

[Brian]

ETC Smartfade ML doesn't seem to offer anything over the Jester.

 

My personal desk is a Smartfade ML and was bought, using my own cash, in preference to a Z88 product. It has, in my eyes, a number of advantages...

 

1) It looks a much much nicer and more professional unit. I'm sorry Z88 but most of you stuff looks like it was designed in a shed in someone's garden.

 

2) Its got a few nice features used when busking a show with movers. Rubber-banding (or whatever they call it) is very usable.

 

3) It's a nice compact desk. Mine lives in a flightcase originally designed for a small music keyboard with a couple of extra blocks of foam I added. It makes for a light, easy-to-carry, package.

 

4) It's easy to use. I've been able to put it in front of seasoned operators used to things like Avo and within a couple of minutes they are plotting and playing back shows.

[jonhole]

Need new lighting consoles to run a LED & generic rig in one space and a ML/ LED rig in another.

Z88 have got the jester range

 

Due to the hundreds of Jester consoles in Edinburgh for the festival this year, we created a "Technical Note" on using LED fixtures with the Jester range. If it's useful, you can download the PDF by clicking here.

 

We've also just launched another 12 free training courses, some of which are on the Jester range. If you have any colleagues who would benefit from this, have a look at the dates and drop us a line: zero88.com/training/