College Lighting Console

[vinntec]

Ian - as you can see your question was simple, but the answer is not! What you need to do is write down all the things the desk MUST be able to do in your environment. Looking 10 years ahead, how many dimmers might you have and how many intelligent lanterns (including LEDs)? Now add a fudge factor to set a minimum number of DMX channels the desk must support. Are sliders per channel important? If so write that down. Do you have physical size constraints to fit into the operating position? Are theatrical cue stacks important? Is busking important? etc etc. So get a list together of all the things the new desk must do as well as the maximum price. Now make a list of things you would like the desk to do but which are not essential. Also look at training options - is free training offered? How often is it run? Is it in the UK?

 

I will put in a plug in for Chamsys now - when I was doing exactly this earlier this year for my theatre, James had been in and run a live demo on our infrastructure while the other potential suppliers had not even replied! In a few weeks we had enquired, had an on-site demo, priced, purchased, and had two of us on a 2 day training session.

 

When you have a short list, demand a demo from the makers and/or dealers ideally in your venue of each one. Now make a choice on which one fits your environment the best. Get as many potential long term users involved in both requirements analysis and demos.

 

Good luck!

[top-cat]

Ian - as you can see your question was simple, but the answer is not! What you need to do is write down all the things the desk MUST be able to do in your environment

 

Without over-complicating it I tend to go for the moscow method. - MUST SHOULD COULD WON'T

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoSCoW_method

 

 

 

Really good way to compare things in a given application.

[Ben_Taylor]

I'm going to echo what everyone else says, get a list together then contact a distributor

 

If you give me an email we can bring some desks across and show them and let them make there own mind up, which I have done on lots of times.

 

But a smaller list, 3 maybe, would be better as if you have many more you can get confused by looking at to many desks and trying to remember what you liked and what you didn't.

[paulears]

Sadly, Top-Cat, your comment to David that he is short sighted just shows you are very out of touch. At university level, at some establishments that run proper lighting courses, then there is indeed understanding of industry systems and practice, but up to that point, most of the rather nice lighting installations in purpose built studio theatres is used for illumination, and run by the teachers and students - who have no skills in that area at all.

 

I've been trying to quantify this statement, and in the past 5 years I think I have been to probably 60 or so, maybe even a few more - and two fit the criteria for being technically up to speed in the way we're talking here. The rest have great audio and lighting systems that simply provide an alternative to fluorescent lighting or daylight.

 

The actual choice of lighting control is rarely made with any real purpose, and quite a lot have Frogs - on a light per channel setup, because that is all that is needed. Technical content of the current UK courses in Drama, Dance, Theatre Studies and Performing Arts is minimal in the extreme - usually being in the "be aware of" camp rather than "able to do". The number of students doing it in past few years has actually fallen because BTEC have stripped out the production units into their own Production Arts qualification, which meant that for many colleges and sixth forms, a dedicated course for this subject was uneconomic and totally impractical. Some BTEC units that were written never even had a single student registered on them.

 

TC - I can't convince you that this is how it is. However, I know it to be true from personal experience. Sound is exactly the same - for their examinations, in so many schools, the sound is not replayed from their complex sophisticated sound system at all - a kid sits at a computer on youtube, and presses play - using the same system they use to watch you tube videos. They don't even use playlists, just multiple windows all on different youtube pages. That is perfectly capable of doing the job, because sophistication is not required. They will be judged on the choice of music or sound effect, not it's quality or implementation. BTEC at Level 2 and 3 Performing Arts has no need for lighting controls which I'm sure we find odd, but this is how it is.

 

When I visit schools and I ask the kids to put the lights on - they can all do it, like switching on a light - just shove a few faders. In some schools, the kids may have a big stick to poke their lights into new directions as the bolts are loose. Some have low grids, and can stand on a block to move them (unofficially, of course). Loads of schools may have 50% of the lights working, as they are tested, re-lamped and re-gelled annually. One purpose built performing arts centre cannot use their moving lights because the power to them is controlled from the other side of a locked door that not even the caretakers have access to. Another nice studio, with upstairs gallery cannot be used because the controls face a wall, with the operators backs towards the window, that is too high to see down, so again, shove some faders, and then go back down the stairs.

 

It is very common for drama studios to have a rack of rather nice equipment, and IWBs with decent LED or tungsten kit, but nobody to keep it going - as technical support has been removed in cost cutting.

 

My view is that anyone interested in lighting at school is better to join the local amdrams, as lighting in schools and colleges is simply illumination. The notion of Hogs, Avos, ETCs, Chamsys is actually a bit laughable, because they are all vastly over complicated for a school or college's actual needs. A school or college with a technician who is keen just provides that person with some nice toys to play with. If that person went on holiday, then for two weeks, they'd just carry on without them. Frankly, there is no educational reason to spend this kind of money at all, because it's nice to have, but no longer part of the course.

 

I've come across on a number of occasions, a school or college doing sophisticated technical stuff one year with one teacher and technician suddenly doing far simpler stuff, when those members of staff leave - with NO impact on grades.

 

When I wrote the first BTEC automated lighting unit, I had to minimise the equipment requirement so as to not make it impossible for centres to do - and then what happened was they just hired this minimum standard of equipment for their final show. It met all the rules, but students doing the unit perhaps had ten hours in the year to 'play' with the kit. That was not the intention, but it is what happened.

 

Lighting in schools is simple enough that the kids constantly fiddle with the lights - because focussing is random pointing - it also means lighting constantly gets messed around with, simply because with faders, it can be!

[alistermorton]

Hog3 is an old, obsolete model now, though, so I don't quite understand why the house tech wants to go down that road.

 

Probably because they have used a Hog 3 some time in the past, really liked it and got on with it, and would feel completely comfortable with it. Same as many people would plump for a Frog if they've become very familiar with one, even though the frogs are now somewhat long in the tooth and not on the current Z88 product list.

 

 

 

[Ken Coker]

I think we're all forgetting something here - that kid's are actually quite bright and we're supposed to be encouraging them to be so.

If kids move stuff around or do random pointing who cares? Obviously, they need to do it safely...

 

I use to light the usual school shows at my daughter's local school - Grease, WWRY, that kind of thing. One day I showed some of the kids some terrible bit of DMX software; within an hour they had a joystick connected and were whizzing their two Mac 250s about....that seems to me to be the thing we should be encouraging.

 

Chamsys/Avo...? It doesn't really matter because those that are interested and can be enthused will learn all there is to know. The rest? Well as long as they don't pour their cokes into it, they can prod it a bit and make random lights come up.

 

Oh....and make clear to the finance people that in five-years you want to write it off and buy a new one.....I don't expect the headmaster has a five year-old laptop......

 

 

KC

 

Oh....and get something that will take MIDI; then all the music tech/DJ kids can join in...and you don't need an wing....possibly

[top-cat]

I've been trying to quantify this statement, and in the past 5 years I think I have been to probably 60 or so, maybe even a few more - and two fit the criteria for being technically up to speed in the way we're talking here. The rest have great audio and lighting systems that simply provide an alternative to fluorescent lighting or daylight.

 

 

Well, well done you. I on the other hand have worked on a lot of school installations so have only been to places that have had good setups - because I put them in. And what did I see? Excellent theatrical practice with schools doing properly run, thought out theatre shows to standards easily matching and usually exceeding what the local am dram would do.

 

Just because something doesn't meet your experience of it, it doesn't mean it's "out of touch". Your experiences are not the gospel. Some schools are as into it as universities and you have no way of telling if the OP here is one of them. You are simply assuming. And basing the responses of an otherwise helpful thread on assumption is silly.

 

Whilst I do not doubt that there are some schools out there with equipment fetishes who are unable to use it for anything that could not be achieved with work light... there are plenty out there who employ teachers with theatre experience and are creating properly scripted shows with LX and sound cues throughout and the students are taking this in and doing it properly. As Ken said, modern kids can grasp technology very quickly and are growing up with computers and electronic devices as a part of day to day life.

 

Your lack of enthusiasm for this is just not productive or even reflective of the many schools who strive for the best production standards every time I don't quite understand what your issue with it all is.

 

I've previously mentioned it and I'll mention it again, here's the Leys School theatre, and they have an excellent example of a top quality facility which they actually stage excellent, properly produced shows in.

 

https://I.theleys.net/productions/welcome and https://twitter.com/...GreatHall/media

 

I worked on that theatre build and was very impressed by their attitude to it all

[Geetrt]

@Ken Coker

 

 

 

 

That's exactly what I experience. You have to make it fun for the kids, not necessarily easy. Make it a video game, but with cool equipment.

 

The classes I teach are very hands-on. Some kids are more technical, others more creative. So some act as operators, others as designers etc, like in the real world. Together they come to a result.

 

Give them the tools and confidence to play with really cool expensive stuff, and they will come...

 

 

 

[the kid]

 

 

I've previously mentioned it and I'll mention it again, here's the Leys School theatre, and they have an excellent example of a top quality facility which they actually stage excellent, properly produced shows in.

 

https://I.theleys.net/productions/welcome and https://twitter.com/...GreatHall/media

 

I worked on that theatre build and was very impressed by their attitude to it all

 

 

To be fair that IS a private school who have lots of money, and specialise in performing arts (sending little Robbie and Blossom there I imagine will cost more than most people here earn in a year). I know of a school who regularly drop tens of thousands on their end of year shows, we were pushed to get more than £1500. There are several schools where I am that have exactly the same facility as leys, infact all have theatres less and 10 years old, 2 techs or more, oddly enough they all are private. The state schools, in and out of the area, even those that are specialist that I have visited are all of the same ilk that Paul talks about.

 

 

BUT what is being missed is that if it is a college,

 

My wife works at a college where they have a rig with 76 channels of dimming and four moving lights and two scrollers,

mostly plotted shows, mostly drama, some dance, no massive music gigs or anything. Students will need to sometimes operate but not to plot or learn as it's not part of the learning.

 

 

It should make no difference what is used so long as the person running it is happy. Personally I would er on an ETC because someone coming in (as a replacement or a cover or if they hire as a venue)it is going to be quick for most people to pick up.

[top-cat]

I've previously mentioned it and I'll mention it again, here's the Leys School theatre, and they have an excellent example of a top quality facility which they actually stage excellent, properly produced shows in.

 

https://I.theleys.ne...uctions/welcome and https://twitter.com/...GreatHall/media

 

I worked on that theatre build and was very impressed by their attitude to it all

 

 

To be fair that IS a private school who have lots of money, and specialise in performing arts (sending little Robbie and Blossom there I imagine will cost more than most people here earn in a year). I know of a school who regularly drop tens of thousands on their end of year shows, we were pushed to get more than £1500. There are several schools where I am that have exactly the same facility as leys, infact all have theatres less and 10 years old, 2 techs or more, oddly enough they all are private. The state schools, in and out of the area, even those that are specialist that I have visited are all of the same ilk that Paul talks about.

 

 

 

 

I agree that it is a private school with more money. However the OP made no mention of which college is in question or how much money they have to spend. BR members have simply taken it upon themselves to assume that because it's an educational establishment, they will be totally unable to comprehend the idea that you can store multiple lighting values within a cue and operate more than one light with a single fader. Because everyone who works in a school is so simple that could only possibly get their head around a single light being dimmed with a single fader.

 

There is no need for that kind of thinking.

 

 

[J Pearce]

Just wanted to drop a note to say that I work in a specialist state school where work is done to a professional standard, by 16-18 yr old students, who use industry standard equipment (often to complete some of the units that Paul has written).

I am aware that we are somewhat unusual however. But if anyone is in doubt that it can be achieved feel free to buy a ticket for one of our shows http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif

 

We have an Ion and an Element across our two venues, plus a Jester and a few Jugglers for studios and out and about work. The element has been a recent addition via our takeover of the Old Rep, and we have found the limitations quite annoying having been used to the Ion.

Students have little issue operating any of these once they've had a quick tutorial and been left to play with them. As I speak one of our students is programming a lightshow on our Element run automated via Qlab, with step and linear effects, manual marking and over a hundred cues in 5 mins.

 

Don't underestimate what they can do, this is a generation used to figuring out technology very quickly and intuitively.

[timsabre]

Just wanted to drop a note to say that I work in a specialist state school where work is done to a professional standard, by 16-18 yr old students, who use industry standard equipment (often to complete some of the units that Paul has written).

 

There are 3 state secondary schools near me who are also like this, and do it on a low budget as well. Some have the latest equipment, some not, but they still make very good creative use of it.

It does largely depend on having one or more enthusiastic teachers - there are also 3 new-build state secondary schools with the latest kit who can't get much past turning on the mains switch.

[Ken Coker]

 

We have an Ion and an Element across our two venues, plus a Jester and a few Jugglers for studios and out and about work. The element has been a recent addition via our takeover of the Old Rep, and we have found the limitations quite annoying having been used to the Ion.......

Don't underestimate what they can do, this is a generation used to figuring out technology very quickly and intuitively.

 

And a very fine Titan Mobile on occasions!

(Now with a rather groovy, dedicated touch screen PC)

 

KC

[J Pearce]

Actually the Titan is a great example, it came in 2 days before the show and my students worked it out in under an hour with only 1 request for help and a few references to the manual. Patch, programming and operation.

Generation iPad do not struggle with technology. Writing up their excellent practical work is a different matter...

[marktownend]

Generation iPad do not struggle with technology

 

I so wish I could say the same about me! I'm only 42.