Small, light subs - maybe build them?

[John M]

I hired a single Mackie sub - DLM12s recently for use for a loud party in a marquee - I was very surprised at how good and how light it was. So I started looking on line but the price seems ridiculous at up to £900 per unit. They only have a 12" speaker and weigh 21Kgs. Supposedly they have a 1000watt RMS speaker. That night the system was used by a famous reggae band (playback) as well as a DJ playing ragga etc. If I had just used my tops they would have struggled.

 

Has anyone done any comparisons of the Mackie with other lightweight subs Alto, DB etc. Whatever happens I need a sub that can be lifted by one person, does not take up all the room in my car and can be loud when required. Ideally the weight should be no more than about 24Kgs

 

 

I will be using them with JBL EON 515xt's which of course are also very light at less than 15Kgs.

 

So - what about building my own subs? Any suggestions for speakers - They would need to be neo to save some weight. What would be a good material to make the cabinets from. Does anyone have any reasonably easy plans for building suitable cabinets?

 

 

I have had a word with a very helpful guy at Faital and he guided me to their model 12PR300. Now this is only 300watts RMS but has a sensitivity of 99dB which is very attractive and it weighs less than 2Kgs so could be a contender. Price is about £120. I am guessing a simple class d power amp should be about £160, wood £50, handles etc £30 so about £350 each to build but then not as powerful on paper as the Mackies.

 

So

1 any recommendations for lightweight powerful/loud subs

2 any recommendations for building a sub - would it be worth the effort?

[bruce]

Things to remember:

 

1. You'll need good woodworking and finishing skills.

2. The "big boys" have got big research budgets, and years of expertise. They do this stuff for a living.

 

and 3. The most important. If you spend say 750 on a quality unit (that's the typical selling price of the Mackie), and a couple of years down the line decide to sell it, you'll get a good proportion of your investment back. If you spend 350 building your own, and decide to sell it tomorrow, you'll find it's worth pretty much nothing.

 

 

Update: have a look at this discussion from a few weeks ago

[top-cat]

Since you are on about building, I'm assuming that you're considering unpowered models a valid option?

 

You should check out Void's "Mycro" range, there are 3 to choose from - the 'Bass' (1x12, 30kg), the 'Sub' (1x12 horn loaded, 25kg) and the 'X' (2x12, 42kg) and all 3 - particularly the 'Sub' IMO, produce very impressive low end considering their size and weight.

 

I'm not sure what prices on the Mycro are like but generally Void are quite fairly priced. You may (I'm not sure) be able to buy the Basys or Viper subs outside their packages - the B15 and V15 respectively are the subs, and the latter being the cheaper. Both are still impressive units but should fit the budget end of the spectrum a little better.

 

I still think the Void Basys is the best sounding live music speaker system that you can fit into the boot of a car. I've never heard anything better for the size. I met a mobile DJ who bought 2 sets (to make the rig scaleable to different venues) and he was planning on buying more, people had been commenting on the sound quality and asking to take them on dry hires. A great little sales fact I do remember is going to a Void demo at Matter nightclub (at the O2 - now Proud2 I think) and the technical manager there being so impressed with the system that he bought the demo rig, on the spot, to use as front fills in there.

 

. If you spend 350 building your own, and decide to sell it tomorrow, you'll find it's worth pretty much nothing

 

 

Sorry but I would like to comment that this is not particularly true. A home made box is probably worth a lower percentage of it's original cost than a manufacturer-made one for sure, but 'almost nothing' is a slightly unnecessary exaggeration.

 

Well made boxes to a known design can fetch reasonable money second hand, and the drivers - whether manufacturer-installed or purchased yourself, are worth much the same as each other.

 

I am not saying building is a good idea. The main reasons I would not bother is (A) it will take you a couple of goes with a bit of testing and practice to get it right, so for a small number of units it will cost the same anyway; (B) the price of materials and tools in small quantities are much higher than that of the bigger brands buying higher quantities which raises the price; © it takes knowledge and experience to do this so you cannot expect equal quality, speaker building is a job in it's own right and a sound engineer building boxes for the first time should expect no better result than a chippy doing sound for the first time.

 

Low-end (excuse pun) subs are generally quite affordable now and unless you need 10+ I would say that building will give you a lower quality product at a higher total price. Plus if you factor in your own day rate at say £250 a day then where do you end up? It's not a set of shelves in your bathroom, get something which works from somebody who knows what they're doing.

[timsabre]

Me and a friend once built some subs from 18mm ply and unless you are already an expert joiner it is a lot harder than you might think. As Topcat suggests we had to scrap the first attempt. Everything has to fit together perfectly to be airtight and very rigid, in the commercial units all the panels are CNC routed to slot into each other which allows them to use thinner lighter materials but still get a good result.

 

It's certainly an interesting learning experience though if you have the time and patience for it.

[paulears]

I've done it, and my third attempt was not too bad. I agree, that you really need to be very careful with your cutting. However, my joinery was actually pretty good and the right kit made it work. The problem was that I had not realised how much bracing was needed and the first two rattled. I think the actual panels themselves were resonating, and this made all sorts of strange buzzes. The last version had the usual construction but with lots of hued in braces - and no rattles - BUT - they were mega heavy. By the time you buy the plywood, the tools you don't have, the special paint, and worse still the hardware - the price really is not that cheap.

[Jivemaster]

Sadly from experience, you will never make a cab with those facilities Amp crossover and DSP and make it look good and sound good for significantly less than the retail price.

 

You may make a cab and it may work, but work right and look right -no chance.

[MarkPAman]

If you do decide to build you own, then spend some time at Speakerplans. The forum there is full of people who build their own.

[Jivemaster]

There were online copies of the Eminence and Wharfdale guides to speaker cab design, they may still be available or you may find a seller on ebay or Abe books with a hard copy book for sale.

[John M]

Thanks for all the replies. I did make a pair of speaker cabs a few years back for some Fane 15" drivers with eminence horns - I followed the manufacturers spec very closely with thick ply at about 5/8" maybe more, glued, and sealed all the joints and spent a lot of time with the ports trying to find the best port size - I have to say they sounded not bad but weighed a ton. Amazingly one was stolen from the van outside my house - I cant imagine how anyone could walk very far with those but obviously someone did!

 

I think the market for home made speakers is very limited - so the value of the cabinets can be virtually written off but good quality speakers from reputable manufacturers do seem to keep some value

 

Having said that - It is a big effort to build and cost wise, as a few of you have noted, its not such a great saving if any- although of course I can pick the best/most suitable speakers but....I assume some science goes into the matching of speakers to amps with the limiter cutting in at the right level and probably tuning the amp to get the most out of the speaker (If I can believe the publicity material).

 

I have spent a bit more time searching DV247 and Thomann and there do appear to be quite a few lighter subs appearing now and given that Thomann offer a 30 day returns policy I am tempted to try.

 

Has anyone else had experience using the Mackie LDM12s verses the other cheaper options. The cheapest new UK price seems to be around £730 - perhaps it would be better to have just one of those rather than 2 of the cheaper variety. As mentioned in my first post the sound from one was impressive in a Marquee with very prominent bass - which instigated a visit from the police to get the sound turned down.

 

My use would be

For band gigs - mainly kick drum and very rarely bass guitar - keyboards, guitar, brass etc I will use LF fliter

For singers with backing tracks in the hope that I can give some relief to my JBL EONS which do have decent bass but not anywhere near that generated by the DLM12s.

Everything has to fit in my car so a single sub would save some space.

 

AND - one last point. The Mackies are rated at 1000 watts RMS - . It seems like all the main manufacturers have now decided to call their speakers 1000watts - Mackie, QSC, JBL, Behringer etc - Its about time that some central body started carrying out unbiased tests so that we can compare specs in the knowledge that they are all coming from the same starting point - maybe this is already done in which case can somebody provide a link. Cant trust any of the specs at the moment SPL - measured, calculated, whatever its just not possible to compare with any confidence.

[Stuart91]

Its about time that some central body started carrying out unbiased tests so that we can compare specs in the knowledge that they are all coming from the same starting point - maybe this is already done in which case can somebody provide a link. Cant trust any of the specs at the moment SPL - measured, calculated, whatever its just not possible to compare with any confidence.

 

In the USA, Pat Brown has founded a company doing just that. Link here.

 

I would certainly trust him to provide unbiased, accurate results.

 

Unfortunately, a service like this is one that the manufacturers themselves pay for. Having proper specs and EASE data is important if you want consultants specifying your product for the more prestigious installation projects. However, if the main market for your "1000w" sub is gullible DJs, accurate figures are far less important than marketing hype...

[Doug Siddons]

I would suggest you have a look for a pair of 2nd hand HZ SB600 passive, which go for silly prices on ebay HZ did do a powered version but there is no support for it so if amp goes bang your still left with a passive sub.

[audiomik]

Re: "So - what about building my own subs? Any suggestions for speakers - They would need to be neo to save some weight. What would be a good material to make the cabinets from. Does anyone have any reasonably easy plans for building suitable cabinets?"

 

Have a look at the 'Q15' design over on Speakerplans, also perhaps the 'Q12' design, both of which were designed for the type of use you are asking about.

Both of the boxes have available CNC pre-cut ply panels as 'kits' really only requiring a screwdriver for assembly.

 

BMS Neo Drivers from forteaudio.eu and flat-pack kits via links from this website

 

I don't have a commercial connection with forteaudio.

 

hope this assists

Mik

[dickiefunk]

I've tried the Alto TS Sub 12's and personally found they couldn't really be used beyond 50% as they have a lot of port noise. I've heard great things about the FBT Vertus subs :-

 

http://www.fbt.it/ENG/PAE/PRODOTTI/LINE-ARRAY/Vertus/CLA208Sa/

[John M]

By strange coincidence I was doing a band gig last night in a massive marquee and the DJ was using a couple of the FBT subs which did sound pretty good - although he was not really giving them a good blast. I notice Thomann doing them for about £600.. The DJ loved them because of the size, weight and quality. He has 4 which he "uses for bigger gigs" - well I thought it was a pretty big gig but he was happy with just using two

 

Many thanks for the links to ETC. I can see ETC would be good for manufacturers etc but I would love to see some simplified and controlled specs available for retail speakers - They are still quite a considerable amount of outlay and subject to the most ridiculous psudo techno claims

 

Thanks for the tip about Hz subs. I see there is an HZ600 on ebay with a Behringer amp for £350 - but I try to minimise the amount of connections and go for the fastest set up times and minimum amount of equipment so I will look for the powered version - hopefully they are not using purpose built components so they are repairable if necessary.

 

Thanks for the links to the speaker plans

 

Alto TS 12 now crossed off my list of options!

 

 

 

[richie1575]

If you're looking for something lightweight and passive, EV SB122's might fit the bill! I've had great results with my 4 units. They have a built-in crossover which is effective, though I prefer to bi amp them!

 

Just my two penneth!

 

Richie