ImagineerTom Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Brian - NOT having a contract or clearly defined T&Cs makes legal action even more expensive as as days of expensive legal time is wasted as the parties argue which particular statutory frameworks actually apply in the absence of defined ones. I've won plenty of court cases because I've been able to walk I to court with a copy of our T&Cs and point out that they say XYZ and all I'm asking the court to do is enforce the contract terms the other part have already agreed to. In legal matters "the contract says" triumphs hours of linguistic wrangling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 If you google ALD rider - you can see a pdf document with their standard terms. Copyright isn't detailed to the level of the actual programming - just the design, which perhaps simplifies it.Copyright: All rights in and to any design conceived by the Lighting Designer in the course of the provision of services provided, shall be and shall remain, upon their creation, the Lighting Designer’s sole and exclusive property. No changes can be made to the design without the Lighting Designer’s prior approval. This seems to cover it really - you create the lighting for the show and the entire design is protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceecrb1 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Both Tom's and Paul's views are the ones I share.... Holding up the paper saying "you agreed to this...." and (in my example case) It was me who sat down with a copy of their set who decided x song with y colour and z chase... no artistic input from them other than a few youtube videos of concerts they have been too and liked. Which makes me feel like it was MY work that got it done. If I had been purely a programmer following an LD's specs Id think differently. TBH I am not sure I will even be able to accept the tour as I have the summer already fully booked and have even had to cancel my usual gig at the edinburgh festival for this year... Also as I said.. they are waking up to the fact that a festival tour involves work and organisation rather than just turning up, getting drunk and having fun getting the croud going... A few weeks ago they got pretty rude with me and my friend/colleague (the supplier of the neccessary sharpys). We both insist we wernt told, but they wanted us to leave their conffetti launcher at the last venue we were at for them to take to the next (in another city).Long story short, we took it in the derig as we do every event (they asked us to transport it on the tour as they travel by train/plane).... They could not find it, the day before the next gig which we were not going to..We nippied it (3 hours) down the motorway free of charge without a seccond thought. (even with a smile on our faces) When arrived were told that we were just "over complicating everything" and we had no right to take it *incert insults and explitives* blah blah blah.We are both entirely sure that they had NOT told us to leave it at the last venue, but even if they did tell us and it was our mistake... we instantly hopped it in the van and got it to where it needed to be and fixed the problem (plus a lads night out in alicante).. yet they wernt happy... We didnt bother to argue with them...All this the 24 hours before their next gig.. Not exactly last minute before they go on stage or anything worth stressing over.I was originally starting to think it was my mistake, something lost in translation, but my coleague is native and he swears that he understood the situation exactly as I had. Alarm bells for the future we think.Which is why I started this thread.... trying to work out what could happen if that kind of behaviour from them carrys on and things get silly in the middle of the festival tour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Devil's advocate .... no artistic input from them other than a few youtube videos of concerts they have been too and liked. Which makes me feel like it was MY work that got it done. Sooo... You based your 'designs' (in part) on someone else's designs that you saw on an internet video...?Sort of weakens the argument to an extent, maybe... /Devil's advocate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceecrb1 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Devil's advocate .... no artistic input from them other than a few youtube videos of concerts they have been too and liked. Which makes me feel like it was MY work that got it done. Sooo... You based your 'designs' (in part) on someone else's designs that you saw on an internet video...?Sort of weakens the argument to an extent, maybe... /Devil's advocate No, I dont plagiarize. But if they send me a video and say that one element of the stage being some cyan gobos with prism rotating and say "we like that kind of thing"... I know what to aim for.They are not lighting techs.. they dont even know what a gobo is called... Its the best way they have to comunicate to me the basic idea they have in their head. No need for a Hmmmm today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Ignoring the copyright part - one thing that often seems to get in the way is how you got booked. So if it was a simple supply the kit and operate it job, then that might be considered to be a bit like being programmer - simply doing what they ask. I'm thinking about something I did like this recently. The guy paying the invoice asked for things, I programmed them in, and then he asked for the next state to be ...... and so on. Quite a bit I thought looked pretty rubbish, but he liked it, and pretty well each state was tagged with "Record it?". He'd say yes or no. I went away with the show file on a dongle, but really so that if he wrecked it, I could put it back. He's very likely going to give any tweaking to somebody else to do, rather than call me back - so in this case, I invoice for programming, take the money and walk away. Equally, the planning and design process for a Son et Lumiere that lost it's funding before the hire orders went in had a part invoice issued and the design I kept. Maybe fearing that you are in for the chop, your options are different. From how I read it, the control is your own, so as the design is essentially inside it, removing the hardware, removes the design. If they want it back, then fine - but your desk and presumably you as the operator is the deal. If it was in their desk, it would be different (at least in my head). Even having the file doesn't guarantee it will work. If they are savvy enough to know what the control was, then they could dry hire in a desk and run your show files. Only, though, if you are willing. I guess so much is down to how difficult you want to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Which is why I started this thread.... trying to work out what could happen if that kind of behaviour from them carrys on and things get silly in the middle of the festival tour. That sort of tells me that before you and colleague go any further a sit down over a cortado is needed to explain your position now and for the future. I have been here with theatre players and bands before now and for everyone's sake get it straight before they get over-dependent on you or you get p155ed off with their fear. For fear is what it sounds like from here. You may be pushing them toward professionalism, and trusting others to contribute, too fast or they are just not mentally prepared for what they have got themselves into. No blame, no shame, but it could get very awkward very quickly unless everyone lays their cards on the table honestly. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ceecrb1 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 but it could get very awkward very quickly unless everyone lays their cards on the table honestly. Just my opinion. Entirely agrre.. a "relaxing cup of cafe con leche" (do people out side of spain know about that joke?) may be neccessary with them. Its not that I am pushing them to profesionalism... Its just that thier idea of "production" is to send me a message on facebook saying: Be in X club in madrid on saturday with the gear. Then I need to go back to them and explain, that the truss goalpost they want cant be done as it will fill the stage and a live band is in before them, I need a contact phone number for the club to get the guys in to rig, organise a rig time and find out about available power etc..All of this to them is "making it difficult".They used to have a production company doing it all for them, but the idea of "we can do that and charge the same per gig but spend less!!". But I dont think they knew what they were getting into.. I think they thought it was as simple as we all decide that on saturday we'll be in barcelona and a party happens. It really is a shame as I have done quite a few gigs with them, small clubs and large festivals and NEVER had any issues, infact it was one of my most enjoyable gigs... They mostly leave me to program what I see fit and trusted my judgment.. took me to their 5* hotels with them and made sure I was well fed/watered, I didnt have to rig and ALWAYS payed at the end of the night etc etcThat was up untill about the last month or so when they decided they could be their own production staff.... Ie the idea of them turning up and having fun dissapeared and they suddenly had to work... They treat their act like it is their weekend hobby (it isnt their main income).. and I think the reality of how much work the production company did is starting to set in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 To be honest they sound like they need a near disaster that you fix at the last moment. Everyone knows shows just happen, until they don't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Having a discussion with your employer/work provider may help, but they may not realise that the issues you mention even exist, BUT resorting to law and solicitors usually means formalising everything and may well cause you and your work provider to fall out. Being there with the answer when the brown stuff hits the fan and sorting out their problems MAY put you in the position of saviour which may be a good place to start reforming them into a skilled and technically competent bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_s Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Sooo... You based your 'designs' (in part) on someone else's designs that you saw on an internet video...?Sort of weakens the argument to an extent, maybe... I have a vast 'library' of YouTube videos which I use to explain and discuss concepts with directors and clients. A lot of people aren't going to 'get it' unless they see it, so being able to pull out a video or photo demonstrating a similar idea as a basis for discussion is invaluable. That doesn't mean I'm plagarising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 Sooo... You based your 'designs' (in part) on someone else's designs that you saw on an internet video...?Sort of weakens the argument to an extent, maybe... I have a vast 'library' of YouTube videos which I use to explain and discuss concepts with directors and clients. A lot of people aren't going to 'get it' unless they see it, so being able to pull out a video or photo demonstrating a similar idea as a basis for discussion is invaluable. That doesn't mean I'm plagarising.You didn't include the 'devils advocate' tags on there... :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark_s Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 I understand that they may not be your personal views and that you are indeed playing devil's advocate - I was just adding in my opinion that I don't think that makes his claim to ownership any less valid. Sorry if my selective quoting gives a different impression. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted April 27, 2014 Share Posted April 27, 2014 It was admittedly rather tongue in cheek as well, because to be honest, my personal views are that there is very little in our industry that is 'new' - just that there are bigger choices these days for 'how' to achieve effects. I am 100% sure that ALL of us at some stage or other have copied ideas seen either live on stage or on videos, although I'd like to think that most of us would modify the concept to suit what we're doing at any given point. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart91 Posted May 13, 2014 Share Posted May 13, 2014 I stumbled across this article again recently. It covers this sort of situation pretty well, albeit with a US bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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