Powder extinguisher - alternatives?

[yeletah]

I'm about to work on a contemporary dance piece, the director of which would like to incorporate powder extinguishers into the performance. The extinguishers serve two aesthetic purposes - one being the whoosh of deployment, the second being the powder on the floor which the dancers then use to create shapes with, manipulate and so on.

 

This, as one can imagine has opened up a wealth of issues ranging from damage to electrical equipment from particle dust, clean up concerns and not to mention the myriad potential health hazards exposed to an audience. The technical manager of the theatre where this work is being developed is normally a very understanding chap, but even he is struggling to give his support to the use of powder extinguishers.

 

So, I am trying to come up with an alternative. Something less harmful to people and equipment alike, which can be deployed with some degree of dramatic effect and then leave enough white powder (does not have to be white I hasten to add) on the stage for our performers to move it around as per the choreography.

 

It's also worth pointing out that other seemingly household friendly powders such as talc can be asthma inducing (yep, I've been doing my research) so just any old white powder won't do - it has to be relatively harmless in a theatrical environment to satisfy your average risk assessment.

 

I'm just wondering if anyone has used such a powder / method of deployment in the past?

 

Many thanks

[J Pearce]

I would guess any airborne dust is likely to be a respiratory issue. Special fx companies will be able to hire you a compressed air launcher that could be used to launch your dust if you find something innocuous enough to make airborne.

[ImagineerTom]

As above ANY powder dispersed in the air will cause respiratory problems and also presents a major fire risk unless you find something that's 100% fire-proof and that's a lot harder than you think.

 

The answer here is to have 2 separate effects to create the illusion he wants. CO2 extinguishers will give the "burst" effect he wants and are much easier to RA / Risk mitigate, you then need to find a substance that can already be on the floor but lit so as to be un-noticable but which can be manipulated in the way the choreographer wants but without causing more dust. I'm inclined to suggest sand & minimal floor lighting until after it has been "deployed" whereupon it can be brightly lit to draw the audience's attention to it.

 

Quite simply you're NOT going to get the actual sequence/methodology as simple as you've described it and you need to make that very clear to the director and they need to be fully onboard with the idea that you're going to have to fake it and work together on making the ILLUSION work. No venue is going to ok you blasting powder in to the air no matter how inert it is.

[Stuart91]

If you blast powder around, it'll settle in all kinds of out of the way places. No matter how hard anyone cleans, it will remain there until it is disturbed at some inconvenient moment. The venue will be cursing your name for many years to come...

[the kid]

If I remember rightly from my training, 2 things happen with powder -

1 it is corrosive and quite surprisingly so.

2 it is a laxative, or CAN be laxative when used in confined spaces.

 

Could it be worked that you have sand perhaps and the fire extinguishers aimed in the vague direction of sand that is then spread by the dancers, Avoiding aiming the jets at the sand.

 

You could do something like conceal talc on the canisters and as they fire release the talc, the issue being that is it super light and will fly everywhere.

[Stuart91]

2 it is a laxative, or CAN be laxative when used in confined spaces.

 

Oh, lovely - more mess to clear up...

 

Could it be worked that you have sand perhaps and the fire extinguishers aimed in the vague direction of sand that is then spread by the dancers, Avoiding aiming the jets at the sand.

 

One important factor here is getting the correct type of sand - i.e. don't just buy some bags of the cheapest stuff available at your local builders' merchants.

[ImagineerTom]

You could do something like conceal talc on the canisters and as they fire release the talc, the issue being that is it super light and will fly everywhere.

NO!!!!

Please read the advice I posted before you and check your own advice before dolling out stupidly dangerous information. Talcum powder (like most powders readily available) is flammable and causes respiratory problems if inhaled!

[J Pearce]

Another thought, having just finished a run of a show that used the plastic show snow, does it have to be dust or would confetti sized particles be ok? You can still draw patterns in the fallout as my crew have been all week while sweeping.You'll still upset the venue as like any confetti burst it will get anywhere, but it should (read - your risk assessment not mine!) be large enough to minimise any hazards as long as it is fired up and left to fall, rather than fired directly at someone, as per any confetti burst.

Use proper show confetti or plastic show snow, to ensure appropriate flame retardancy.

[dbuckley]

Talk is a fine powder, and when you try to vacuum it up afterwards, the powder moving through the plastic hose of the cleaner generates lots of volts, and the operator holding the metal bit will yelp quite loudly.

 

Source: personal experience ;)

[the kid]

Talc was the 1st thing that came to mind with being in a sutiable container to empty, you could easily use a sand receptacle on the canister as well.

[ImagineerTom]

Before anyone else suggests talc or any other powder please do a basic google search (

for example)

 

You absolutely do NOT want to be actually using a fire extinguisher or any similar device to "shoot" powder, sand or any other substance, aside from the fire/explosion risks you're also creating what is effectively a shot-blasting gun and unless you have incredibly strict quality control processes you have a very real risk of creating a gun that could causes serious injuries.

[yeletah]

Thanks for all the suggestions/advice. It seems phrases such as 'respiratory problems' and 'fire hazard' have cropped up way too often in this thread. I think I'll save myself the risk assessment nightmare and strongly suggest that the director reconsiders his options. Sand pre-set on stage seems the way forward.

[Oldradiohand]

Just for the sake of pedantism, the "baby powder" which is flammable is made from corn starch, not talcum powder. Talcum powder, like many mineral dusts, carries its own hazards when inhaled. And as for CO2 extinguishers, the outlet jet is forceful and bloody cold - one of those going off near your ear won't do your eardrums any good, not to mention the SPL they produce. As for dry powder, have you seen the safety data sheet? And there are the horrible corrosive effects produced when the powder hits (and sticks to) hot things - like electrical components or lights. You are going to have to drag your director kicking and screaming into the real world.....

[kerry davies]

On dry powder extinguishers; Lincoln diocese has banned them due to the cost involved in clean-up, like dismantling the pipe-organ in one of their churches.

I found one case where a fire crew called to a smouldering chimney emptied an extinguisher into a plastic bag and poured that down the flue. The householder had to change all their soft furnishings and carpets, spent thousands and months getting things right and had to have their dog put down because of lung damage. That's the worst I could find.

 

As I mentioned in the bridges and galleries thread, sand is great but it too can spread everywhere. Do not use builders sand, it can stain. Make sure it is laid on a suitable flooring, I lost at least a hundredweight down floorboards and possibly use a floorcloth to help clean-up and restrict it spreading. I used a washed, kiln-dried, white/silver sand and bounced light from it really well.

 

Dust Explosion is a good entry to show your director.

[Jivemaster]

Talc is magnesium silicate it does NOT burn in any way. Obviously the powder from extinguishers does not burn either. The issue is with mess and clearing up and airborne particle size.

 

A clean white sand from a specialist sand supplier, and of selected mesh cuts to minimise fine particles would do the job well, Silica sand does NOT burn though it may support the combustion of lithium and zirconium should you have that on stage.

 

With cellulosic material Starch etc the dust cloud is highly flammable.

 

Regarding damage by extinguishers in a real hot fire situation the alternative to powder is AFFFoam which will soak into timber causing it to swell and shrink and likely split, and you wouldn't use AFFF if there was the possibility of there being live power there. so on a church organ it's messy powder or let it burn.

 

LOok for a supplier of silica sand from say 25 mesh to 200 mesh that's fine enough to flow but not fine enough to float in the breeze.