Cajon

[p.k.roberts]

Hi All,

 

A drummer colleague is about to by a cajon and asked me whether it is worth buying one with a built-in pickup. I don't have any direct experience of these, so what does the team think - is it worth the extra expense and does it offer any advantage (other than perhaps convenience) over simply micing it up, or is it better to have both options to obtain a better (potential) sound balance? Answers based on practical experience preferred to conjecture :-)

[revbobuk]

I've only ever worked with one without a pickup, and found that a single Beta57 close micing the rear face has worked well for live sound. There's an interesting, though rather brief, article on the Studio Sound website which gives more complex mic setups for recording. There's a longer article on this blog which might also be helpful.

[kerry davies]

I have worked with gypsy flamenco artistes and they certainly would not have used pick-ups.

 

Personally I wouldn't put anything like a pick-up on a percussion instrument, you wouldn't on a snare drum would you, since it could alter the resonance. Double micing a Cajon, plate and sound hole, would be my preference.

Cross post with The Reverend and his first link shows the twin mics well. I believe you need the plate, front bashing board, mic as much if not more than the sound hole mic. Again, personal preference but with just one that is where it would go.

[sam.spoons]

I use a Karma Silver Bullet about 40mm inside the soundhole, attached with a home made clip, for live and, when I come to record our demo, I'll try a kick mic outside the hole and a Beta57 or SDC in front.

 

I don't see why a pickup system with a preamp similar to those used on acoustic guitars would not work well for live use, if they can reproduce the complex harmonic structure of a decent acoustic guitar they should be able to do the same with a cajon. A single passive piezo probably would be unsatisfying though so a bit of research into what type of pickup is fired to his potential purchase.

[S&L]

I regularly mic a trash can used in a similar way, it's actually an upturned plastic dustbin with a thin board taped on top for the beating area. the player uses timber reeded sticks, a little like a cross between a jazz drum brush and a broom stick, if you haven't seen them.

a Cajon is slightly different but there are some similarities.

with the trash can you get bass drum sounds where the bass drum beat would be with a conventional drum kit - and this is the way I mix it live. you would get a similar sound with the cajon.

But both with trash can and cajon you also you get softer higher percussive sounds similar to snare drum work.

I mic the trash can in a couple of different ways - for the bass drum element I put a cheap pulse bass drum mic inside, I usually borrow a fleece, hoodie, jumper or whatever is laying around to lay it on before putting the trash can back over. we used to do this in local bands with an sm58 in a bass drum in the early 80's.

the material helps deaden the boom a little. and gives a thump.

then for the snare aspect I do it one of a few ways. the player likes a little top end clip so I eq for that on the bass drum often, on the channel strip. but I also have an em700 condenser mic on the players vocal mic stand about 12" above. it's actually intended for his washboard and cowbell on a couple of songs but if I need an extra bit of click I can use this mic too. However, there is a washboard on stage elsewhere much of the time adding percussive snare like noises and slap from a double bass too - so I don't often need those ' clicks live.

 

and tht sort of emphasises the point of why a pick up won't necessarily work - but may. it all depends on how the player is playing and what other instruments are playing. on it's own I would lay a mic inside, as described above, with a hoodie or similar - because an empty box jas a bit of boom that won't translate well through speakers - it's like mic'ing a bass drum with out any deadening material inside.

then for the percussive stuff I would look at an sm57, or a condenser as above directed at the area where the players hands are tapping - this will pick up subtleties that will fill out the sound nicely - but they will be lost in a band with other instruments doing the same thing (washboard etc.) - so it's all context.

 

I wouldn't buy with a pickup though - here is a link to a thomann page where they have kindly supplied sample sounds. http://www.thomann.d...ickup_cajon.htm

the pick up sound is boxy and unpleasant particularly if mixed with the rest of a band - it needs deadening - hence my approach with the internal bass drum mic and deadening material. add an outside mic if it's a small band and you want that percussive sound.

if you have a big band playing with some instruments electrified you will just end up using it as a bass drum - here are a couple of clips where I have just mic'ed the inside of the trash can/dustbin, with the rest of the band playing - there is a little percussive noise from the bass drum but most is provided by the washboard and the double bass slap.

https://soundcloud.c...versiders-hip-1

https://soundcloud.c...ders-key-to-the

[cedd]

One of my favourite things about a Cajon is that lovely snap you can get across the back of the fingers in the rim. Often this sound is very difficult to accurately reproduce with a rear or internal mic. Whenever I work with them now my recipe is an SM57 in the back, and then a small diaphragm condenser from the front on a low boom stand. This also helps because most of the Cajon players I work with tend to use other percussion as well - egg shakers in particular, and I know one who plays his Cajon with brushes occasionally. An SDC from the front (SE1a is my weapon of personal choice) captures all that HF rich stuff beautifully.

 

For these reasons I can't really imagine a single mic or internal pickup solution being something I'd be happy with the sound of on its' own. Perhaps coupled with an SDC. Remember also that a pickup is probably still going to need a DI box depending on what output it gives. Might be worth their while buying a cheap DI of their own just in case.

[MarkPAman]

Answers based on practical experience preferred to conjecture :-)

Practical experience tells me that after the first song, the drummer will decide to move it back by six inches - though forwards or sidewise are options too

 

So, for greater consistency, I like to have a built it pickup, though usually in addition to a mic on the plate.

 

Experience also tells me that, that to many people it looks like a small drinks table, apparently.

[Wilflet]

How much difference are we talking between one with pick up and one without?

 

The advantages I see in pick ups are

A)avoids the moving around problem

B) when you turn up at a small venue and the sound guy hasnt heard of a cajon you give him a line and dont get subject to him guessing how to mic it.

 

Both of these are also true of you having your own mic (presuming it mounts to cajon or sits inside) so if its a big difference for a good pick up that may also be an option.

 

My personal preference is a sennheiser e901 inside the cajon, the hf is sensitive enough to get the front skin techniques even with brushes and if you stick it on a long cable it dosnt matter when they move around between songs/pass the instrument around/decide they quite want to do this next song from the other end of the room etc.

[Doug Siddons]

The best sound I've got from a Cajon was with an E901 inside, as has been said the palyer usually has another form of percussion which requires a mic infront which will pick up the slap. If no E901 available then beta 57 pointed just outside the hole works well but as stated Talent usually has a habit of moving during the performance. I have also found that side chaining a narrow band compressor set around 90-100hz from the bass guitar to duck the bass guitar a bit improves the overall sound considerably

[p.k.roberts]

Thanks very much for the thoughts and tips all.