At what point do you pull a show on safety grounds

[AC03]

wow, that makes mosh pits sound like the firy realms of hell.

isnt it just a bit of meaningless fun though

most people are ussually off their face,

so is it really there fault they're all ?

[TomLyall]

Sorry if I'm getting a little too involved with the off-topic chat in this topic, but I've got to respond to this one...

 

wow, that makes mosh pits sound like the firy realms of hell.

isnt it just a bit of meaningless fun though

 

Not when people get hurt, its not...

 

most people are ussually off their face,

so is it really there fault they're all t**ts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, its entirely their own fault. Doesn't matter what's affecting you, your behavior is your own responsibility, and if you deliberately injure someone else, its your fault.

 

[/rant]

[AC03]

Fair enough actually I fully agree,

I diddn't think that message through before I replied.

[Guest lightnix]

I agree wholeheartedly with tomlyall in principal, but in these messed-up times it doesn't always seem to work that way :)

 

For example: have a look at the last few posts in this recent thread, where it appears that a punter interfered with some equipment and then started blaming others for the result; or this recent story on the PSA site.

 

That's right, we seem to live in an age where we can no longer be held responsible for our own actions, but the actions of others are all our fault

 

Drifting back on topic for a second: there is a duty of care towards the audience (and performers), which cannot be ignored. If you are going to allow mosh pits and the like, you have to risk assess the situation and put safe systems in place to deal with any "unpleasantness" that arises. Otherwise...

[AC03]

Well as it happens, two minutes ago I got a phone call asking me to help with a gig (quite small)

do you have any suggestions for safety systems?

 

it is really F**cked up when a perfectly innocent person gets blamed for something they have absouloutly no part in,

but with todays growing obsession to do what you want without any responsibility screws everybody over

 

its a joke

[Jram]

The pit depends on two things - the type of band and the people in it.

 

I've been to see a good hundred or more gigs in the last five years (when I could afford it I'd go and see every remotely metal band that played Glasgow).

 

So despite there being a fair few young people (like me) at Alice Cooper and Judas Priest, we were outnumbered enough that even pogoing was difficult to sustain.

 

Then there's Iron Maiden, who's very mixed fanbase (and it's changed drastically since I first saw them in 98) means that down the front towards the middle there's a pit, and if you don't want to join it, you don't. In a Maiden pit there's generally just a lot of pushing about and improvised 'dancing'.

 

Whereas going to see any Black Metal band (Cradle of Filth are the most commercial example, but it gets a lot darker), you ARE going to get hurt in the pit, because the music is the expression of violent emotions for the band, whereas the crowd express themselves (in the pit) through violence. And it's not mindless, you go in looking for a release you can't find anywhere else, so for many people the pit is a form of catharsis.

 

As long as you know what to expect at any particular gig, you can judge for yourself whether to go in to the pit or not.

 

The problem these days is from teenage idiots who have no idea about pit etiquette. If someone falls, you pick them up, not dance over them. Maybe it's a glasgow thing, but the number of people I've picked up from floors... Anyway, yeah, the problem is with these numpties not knowing what to expect of a pit, and subsequently lashing out with fists and feet. This infuriates the people that are just in for shoving, and so it does occasionally kick off.

 

phew!

 

Oh, and the only time I've known a fatal pit is at an outside gig, due to the mud underfoot. Not even sure it's always pits to blame, sometimes its mere pogoing, people lose their footing, go under and get trampled or drown in the mud. Sad but true. Notably Donington 92 during Guns N Roses set.

[andy_s]

you ARE going to get hurt in the pit, because the music is the expression of violent emotions for the band, whereas the crowd express themselves (in the pit) through violence. And it's not mindless, you go in looking for a release you can't find anywhere else, so for many people the pit is a form of catharsis.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

excuse me if I sound like a wrinkly, but isn't this what we had National Service for?.........(irony?? hmmm)

[Guest lightnix]

The pit depends on two things - the type of band and the people in it... going to see any Black Metal band (Cradle of Filth are the most commercial example, but it gets a lot darker), you ARE going to get hurt in the pit, because the music is the expression of violent emotions for the band, whereas the crowd express themselves (in the pit) through violence. And it's not mindless, you go in looking for a release you can't find anywhere else, so for many people the pit is a form of catharsis.

 

As long as you know what to expect at any particular gig, you can judge for yourself whether to go in to the pit or not...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, if you were the organiser / promoter of a Black Metal gig, where injuries were sustained by punters in the pit and it all wound up in court, that would be the basis of your legal defence, would it?

 

:)

[Modge]

Jram's post I have to say some's my views up a whole lot better than I can and frankly I'd hate to promote or organise a black metal gig!

[gil-galad]

Going back to the origonal thread of this post for a moment.

 

Most of the productions I've toured with where we have used in house equipment and flying have included penalty clauses.

 

e.g

If the venue fails to provide lifting equipment (as laid out in the specification) which conforms to current legislation. Including but not limited to HSAW, LOLER, PUWER, ESAW then the Venue will be liable for any costs incurred in obtaining replacement equipment to service the show.

 

This would be included in the contract by the production company with the venue along with things like suitable numbers of stewards (spin off thread) and security, bar times etc etc.

 

There is no excuse for using dangerous equipment. There is always an alternative.

 

When we had a motor with a clutch that slipped on the PA we just flew the other side out. Dead hung it and moved the motor to lift the other side so we didn't use the duff motor.

 

Time Consuming? Yes

Ball breaking? Yes

A Pain in the Arse? Definitely!!

Safe? Yes

 

As far as the safety of the audience goes there are regulations which are set up to ensure the safety of attendees but the liability can be passed onto the venue in certain circumstances.

For instance. Wembley Arena have their own security and stewards which they control the numbers on dependant on the layout of the venue and the show.

They also manage things like crowd control barriers and the pit area.

 

This is great as they know their venue inside out and have the experience required to make the judgements on these decisions to ensure they are adequately staffed.

 

However if you are touring smaller theatres and their most exciting gig generally is Panto then if you turn up with a rock n roll band where things like moshing are going to take place then even if the venue is offering to supply stewards it is the organisers/ promoters responsibility to ensure the venue is aware of the dangers that may become apparent in order that they can opt to bring in external contractors such as showsec or regency to steward the event and organise adequate barriers etc etc.

 

 

The line of liability is never that clear but it is in the fact that under HSAW everyone has a responsibility for the safety of not only themselves but other workers and the public.

 

BEWARE those who say "Yeh it'll be fine mate!!"