Help----What would you do?

[strandgsx]

Hey Peeps,

 

Just after a few opinions regarding a problem which has arisen which could cause big waves.

 

A few weeks ago my company got another club install contract, they are basicly hiring the equipment and paying a weekly rate.

 

It took three days to install as there are three rooms in the nightclub.

 

To cut this long story short, in the smaller room (backroom) we hung a speaker (smartsoundlp115, 15" +1" trap cabinet) on the wall using an ohm high grade wall mount.

 

We left feeling that it was properly secured, as the mount utilises a pole which goes into the top hat of the speaker.

 

I got a call today from the club and apparently the speaker has fallen down and hit someone on the head, I know that it couldnt just fall down but I have to go there on friday to not only re-secure the speaker, but the somewhat unhappy injured club goer will be there to see me as well.

 

What would you do, they signed a hire contract which states that liability lies with them, but what can be done???

 

Please lend some advice.

 

Many thanks

Marky C

[paulears]

check the terms of your public liability insurance.

 

I'm not a legal expert, but if you installed it, then you are responsible IF the installation was in any way incompetently installed. It does strike me that a cabinet this large and heavy would need very secure fixing. If it's something like a BS-612 the the two top mounting holes are going to be under a lot of tension, most of it away from the wall, with the bottom two taking more of the cabinet weight. At the very least M10 Rawlbolts, if the wall itself is sound - For me, I'd probably have bolted and welded the mount to a larger steel plate, and then bolted this to the wall.

 

My guess is that the punter may or may not have been damaged. If so, the tv claims people will be involved. They'll probably go after the management of the venue, they in turn will then go after you.

 

If you're certain the bracket was installed correctly, then it may be worth checking that OHM don't put a weight limit on it. If not, then you've just got to prove you did the install competently. Don't forget that if it was at a height where the punters could pull it, that's another problem area. Did this happen? If it did, could you have reasonably foreseen this happening?

 

I think that the fact it was a hire is irrelevant. If you hung it up, I suspect that'spretty well that!

[Bryson]

If you were sure about the fixing, perhaps you should do some checking of your own to see if the fitting was "innappropriately used" by, say a pissed-up punter swinging on it, whom it promptly fell on...?

[strandgsx]

Good Point,

 

The celing is quite low so the speaker isnt high up, from what ive been told so far the person was knelt down going through her bag then stood up and made it fall on her (I dont see how thats possible).

 

It may be a case of "quick money for doll earners using tv add quick win claim companies".

 

But I really dont want any hasstle, I have liability insurance up to a million, but dont want to use it to save my premiums,

 

Thanks for the help so far.

Mark

[Brian]

...but the somewhat unhappy injured club goer will be there to see me as well...

 

Bad idea, very bad idea.

 

If there is any chance that you are going to get sued then you should not speak to the injured party. Call your insurers ASAP and let them know the score.

[Andrew C]

Ohh Dear! Deep & Smelly time! Definitely talk to insurers and possibly take your solicitor with you.

 

DON'T SAY SORRY!!! Better still don't talk to punter AT ALL.

[Jivemaster]

Rapid use of professionaly practising qualified lawyer will save most. Find all you can without talking to the third party.

[GMPSA]

Rapid use of professionaly practising qualified lawyer will save most. Find all you can without talking to the third party.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Get your insurers involved. Just give Mr Club-goer their details and let himn get in touch with them. Shopuldn't affect your premiums if it wasn't your fault.

[Guest lightnix]

...but the somewhat unhappy injured club goer will be there to see me as well...

Bad idea, very bad idea.

If there is any chance that you are going to get sued then you should not speak to the injured party. Call your insurers ASAP and let them know the score.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ohh Dear!  Deep & Smelly time!  Definitely talk to insurers and possibly take your solicitor with you.  

DON'T SAY SORRY!!!  Better still don't talk to punter AT ALL.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Rapid use of professionaly practising qualified lawyer will save most. Find all you can without talking to the third party.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Get your insurers involved. Just give Mr Club-goer their details and let himn get in touch with them. Shopuldn't affect your premiums if it wasn't your fault.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ditto all the above.

 

I know this sounds brutal, but if it were me, I would simply refuse to meet the punter face to face under any circumstances, lest I inadvertantly said something that incriminated myself and potentially negated my policy. Refer them (and the club) to your insurance company - that's what they are there for and there really is no other way forward.

 

Contact the club and tell them that you have been advised that you must not speak directly to the punter and (if they try to push you into it) that you are under no legal obligation to do so.

 

Apart from that, I'm sure we're all sorry to hear about this. It's a situation that exists in all our nightmares, please keep us updated with developments.

[Locksmith]

Did the speakers concerned come with manufacturer's recommendations on fittings such as bracket types, fixing sizes, weight loading, safety bonds etc? If so, I presume you read and complied with them. Did the bracket fail or was the speaker lifted off the bracket by the person standing up under it? Did you fit just one speaker or were there more the same? Take pictures of the 'faulty' one and any which still remain mounted. Check that the club didn't alter the fitting after you left. There are so many things which could have contributed to this accident and you need to find out as much as you can for you solicitor. They are the legal expert, but you are the one who can tell them technical stuff. Also, if possible, get an independent company to look over what you've done and write a report on the standard of work, compliance with regulations etc. It all helps. and of course ditto to all the above posts, don't talk to the punter.

[Guest lightnix]

Did the speakers concerned come with manufacturer's recommendations on fittings such as bracket types, fixing sizes, weight loading, safety bonds etc? If so, I presume you read and complied with them...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These are all questions that the insurance company is likely to ask. Once again, leave it to them - have the answers readily to hand if possible, but be careful about volunteering any information you are not actually asked for. A solicitor will be able to advise you on this more precisely.

[ag_lx]

Going slightly off topic, but this gets me thinking...

 

We all know about (and hopefully use!) safety bonds when rigging lanterns, but I've never really seen the same practise with sound. OK, not really an issue with stands, but flown or rigged clusters are different. I admit I'm not a sound person, but I work with lots of them all the time and I don't recall ever seeing it.

 

Just wondering what you guys have come accross?

[gaspipe58]

Not my area but I have had more than my fair share of dealing with insurance/solicitors over the last few years so I hope you find this helpful. It's what I'd probably do.

 

Consult your insurers before the meeting.

If passible get legal advice.

Do not talk or have any form of communication with the injured party.

Do not go alone! You may need witnesses.

If you take pictures use real film not digital.

If you can get out of the meeting. It's really not in your best interests nor anybody elses.

 

Most people in this world are honorable but a significant number are not.

 

I think the advice on this forum is sound and well considered. We are lucky to have such a facility.

 

Please do let us know how things go.

 

Tim

[Guest lightnix]

Consult your insurers before the meeting. 

If passible get legal advice. 

Do not talk or have any form of communication with the injured party.

Do not go alone!  You may need witnesses.

If you take pictures use real film not digital.

Sums upall of the above posts perfectly IMHO.

 

If you can get out of the meeting. It's really not in your best interests nor anybody elses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No "if" about it, just don't go, at least not alone / without a solicitor (but telephone them first to let them know, at least out of politeness).

Most people in this world are honorable but a significant number are not...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:( :)

 

...gets me thinking...

We all know about... safety bonds when rigging lanterns, but... flown or rigged clusters... I work with lots of them all the time and I don't recall ever seeing it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well I do, but it's very good point and valid question, maybe best put in a new thread?

 

I'm sure it would stimulate some further debate.

[djw1981]

If its a flown cluster above audience then it must be safetied to the support - truss / motor being used. We often use rated ratchet straps which we can then tighten to help angle speakers etc.

 

The motor is a standard lighting / truss lifting motor with usual safeguards. For fixed truss at front of stage (ie goalposts) we use 'steels' with plastic covers to clipsnthrough truss to speaker handles. Its too risky not to, espoecially at gigs etc.