big mean bunny Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Hi Guys not been on for a while, I am hoping someone can help me. The school I work at is allowing me to put in a proposal for an upgrade and additional equipment to our performing space. My issue is I have never really brought or spec'd lighting before, only used and set it up etc. At the minute I have 3 bars with 24 lights of varying brands and types (all low budget stuff) however I have zero colour whatever, we don't have a way of reaching the lights and the school are really funny about working at height as we are run by a building company they don't even let me change bulbs and try to insist we use there own caretaking firm which charge us silly amounts to do it, so I would like some colour up on our bars that I can change from the desk so am thinking LED obviously. However I have zero idea where to start, I was wondering if anyone could recommend any companies that would be willing to come in and see the space and give me some advice and quote for us? as I want to make sure I get the right kit as the performing space has been unchanged for 10 plus years as far as I have been told. we are in Sheffield by the way, would massively appreciate any help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMitchell Posted July 11, 2013 Share Posted July 11, 2013 Assuming a budget has been established, invite several installation companies with experience in this sector, to site visit, recommend & quote. Look at their portfolio and go and visit some of their previous school installations. This process will quickly sort the good from the bad & ugly for you and you will gain some new ideas & vision along the way. But please have an indicative budget to work with first, otherwise the whole exercise could be aspirational and a waste of time for all involved. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big mean bunny Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 I do have a budget, I just don't know where to start so am really after suggestions of places/companies that would come quote. The budget is particular small though in the scheme of lighting so am ideally looking for somewhere local to me if possible as I know it wouldn't be worth multiple tenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianknight Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Try Google first - some companies do keep their service area in Google places up to date, try and use someone relatively local to you for when problems occur - support to Sheffield from the Isle of Skye isn't exactly same day :P Also, you don't need to/shouldn't need to pay anybody to come look at your school, spend time talking to you and then drawing up a spec and a quote for you. Talk to companies that have a primary business in installing performing arts equipment i.e. lighting, sound and drapes - we've found there are lots of companies that specialise in AV popping up offering to do lighting and sound lately. Some of them actually know what they're doing - but more of them don't and then you end up with stuff that looks pretty on a website but is impractical for you and your "users". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 As has been said already, get the professionals in to advise and quote for options. But don't get stuck on the idea that they HAVE to be local. Because if there isn't someone local that is going to give the RIGHT advice then it's going to be a worthless process. And many of those with experience will likely travel some ways to jobs anyway (yes it will be reflected in the price, but not necessarily as bad as you might think). What is your budget? What you think of as small may not be so to others. As for the 'what do you need' question, bear in mind a few things. Low budget LED kit may well not have the desired throw to reach your stage with any noticeable power. SOME of the lower end stuff is starting to give fair results but you're talking probably a minimum of £200-£300 each fixture. ALL LED kit will need of course hard power and a DMX feed. If your existing set up allows you to hard patch to the sockets in the grid then that could be an easy fix for the mains to the bars, but if not then you will need to have both power and DMX cabled up to the first position, then have the facility to extend those to the rest of the chain. Infrastructure is probably more important than the kit to start with. Desk - what drives your existing setup? Because many small desks used by schools tend to be limited to 12 or 24 channels. The most basic LED par will consume 3 channels, many will have up to 6 and the more versatile can go up to 10 so that will gobble up your available channels pretty darned quick so make sure you look at the control side first - no point buying half a dozen 10 channel LEDs if you only get to control one of them (or at best control them all on the same DMX channel!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 There is also a real problem in any form of spec-yourself project. If your school do not have a formal tendering process (which I suspect they really do) what you are doing is spending money from an already approved budget. This means using funds designed for the usual in-year spending. These can just be written out and ordered and as long as they're signed for by the person holding that budget, all is well. It still makes sense to get say, three quotes, because very often firms can be crafty. Giving you very good prices on the lighting kit, but charging £25 per cable, and you need 20. I've seen computer monitors at £450 - when they're £75, and all sorts of crafty add-ons. Many firms are having real trouble making money on the actual products - because people like Thomann are very happy to sell to schools and colleges, with 3 year guarantees, and very low prices. So they can only make money on the accessories. UK dealers have a hand tied behind their backs, and have to sell at virtual cost. I've been asked to put together quotes for engineering firms who are doing work in schools, but get asked to supply kit. They just can't do it! You also need to watch out for future flack - when something goes wrong and the buck passing starts. Something happens, and YOUR kit won't do it, and they start blaming it, and by association, your choice! Even getting a consultant in is bad - because many sell equipment, or have preferred suppliers - and this means bias. Sometimes good bias, but they're not really a consultant, working independently! I've seen dozens of quotes that are 95% great - but then have bizarre items in the list! Work out what you actually need - and what it has to do, and why. If access is a problem, then you really need to sort this out - because paying for idiots to come in and work to your instructions is crazy. I'd be inclined to spend some money on a motorised bar or two, that attaches to the precious building, but then you control it - not them. Or maybe get some kind of freestanding truss system, that as it's on the ground, can be looked after by you. When I was at college, the 6 leg truss structure I bought was a godsend. It was a seriously useful spend. You could hang lights on it, hang drapes from it, and take it to places - like local halls or exhibitions. It wasn't big - 4m high and low enough to rig from steps quite safely and paperwork friendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OllieDuff Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 As Paul has said, getting the pros in to advise means that if something goes wrong later on then you don't get burned for it (unless you were negligent etc etc). I've had good experiences with LBI Projects (www.lbiprojects.co.uk). They've done two installs for me in the last year and in both cases they've come up with some really good advice, done a quality job and provided great training and after-sales support - which for the education sector can be very important! Gerry is also usually happy to provide a free, no-obligation quote - so the "cost of multiple tenders" isn't really an issue - and if you ask nicely will provide a quote with a range of options at different price points. Stage Electrics is also worth a look - they do good work, if you have the budget for it. In the interests of balance I must also say that the house lighting controller that they installed in the venue where I work is the source of more sadness and pain than watching a puppy die of cancer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big mean bunny Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 sorry I don't seem to have been very clear I do want someone to come take a look yes as I have zero desire to pick the kit myself as I know where my limitations are and I haven't kept up on market trends or new technology for stage lighting, thanks for the advice so far but was specifically looking for recommendations for companies as despite having googled I don't know where to start so thought I would ask, I have previously always used terralech or whatever they are called but I would really like someone to come in to give us a fresh opinion on our space. The main thing I want is colour as we are doing lighting and theatre craft on one of the BTEC courses next year so it would be good something other than house white so we can talk to them about the use of colour for setting different meaning. Will have a look at those you mentioned Ollie so thank you http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif Budget is £3000 (so is below the official tender thresh hold that we work to and it is also part of an AIP so is subject to different legislation than normal equipment purchase), the space itself has a false roof, so the lighting bars are suspended through that onto the actual roof which I have been told is a good 10 feet away from where the false ceiling/tiles are (the bars themselves are probably 20ft from floor level already). Access equipment is a no as I already have scaffolding that I am not allowed to use, I can't stress how awkward our building owners are. As its a schools performance hall its also used for lunch, lessons, assemblies and there isn't a back stage area or any storage. If I am being honest it is a terrible design! Currently we have a fat frog zero 88 board. DMX chain can continue but there is no more available power in the hall. Currently when we have shows I bring a separate set of few standing lights up from the drama studio however they struggle to fill the space as we have 4 standard cans and 3 low quality LED lights whose brand I can't recall off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
groggy Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Sounds like you are a little disheartened with your situation. Accessing the existing lights would be my main priority. If the main reason for your employers not letting you go up there is safety. There are lots of people that can train how to use your access equipment properly and provide you with the correct certification to keep the health and safety people happy. 20ft really isn't that high! You say that the rig has not been touched in 10 years surely it is all due a PAT test and service. With the correct Training, Risk assessment & insurance there should be no problems with you rigging some LED lights and changing a few bulbs yourself. Provided you wanted to? With your £3k I would expect to be able buy new access equipment or be trained to use yours (I would probably go for a Zarges Ladder.) 6 - 8 Led Pars and maybe a few generic Profiles like source four juniors. I would also try and speak to your local Theatre they should be able to give you impartial advice if there not too busy. You might even be able to go in for a day and get some free training! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big mean bunny Posted July 12, 2013 Author Share Posted July 12, 2013 I used to be a shop fitter and had to do some form of certificate for working at height and using some of the smaller cherry pickers but it has expired now as this was about 5 years ago so I am not adverse to working at height. I would need to look into it however all ladders are banned on our site. Our school buildings providers are a nightmare for things like I mentioned though, we had to fight and fight to get a small set of step ladders to be able to change projector bulbs! The pat testing, servicing and bulb changes get done by one of the companies henchmen in a cherry picker, again we would not be allowed to pat test our own kit because of the building owners regulations. I appreciate it sounds like a mental way of working but its just the way it is for us, wouldn't say I am disheartened but it can be massively frustrating. I have actually been trying to get hold of the local theatre we do a couple of shows a year at Groggy to ask them where they get their kit from as they are pretty decent to us. When they moved over entirely to LED's last year they gave me all their old gels for the use on the powered bars I have in the class room as an example. However if nothing else I might try and have a go again at telling the school its mental that we aren't allowed to touch the lighting equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the kid Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 #1 I would see about something like a zap tower/zap ladder. designed and used by numerous schools now apparently (according to zarges) but having used / been shown one oh GOD is it a good bit of kit for a school. #2 I would call up everyone from AC to north light / white light, SE, etc etc anyone you can put a finger on and get them to suggest options and get a price out of £1500 (the tower would be about £1500) #3 arguably while LED is an option I used, in my last job, some chroma q universals + barndoors very well for general cover, I had a custom scroll made up of straw> deep straw > cold > colour(RED BLUE GREEN) and were good for what I needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 Sadly this is common in contract built schools. If you are not allowed to the grid, how are you going to hang the lanterns?@ Terralec did have some lantern sized cuts of a few colours of dichroic filter, These are adequate for PAR cans and don't fade, so one official trip to the grid with lamps and gels of dichroic glass may suit your needs and your building owners http://www.terralec.co.uk/search.html?searchterm=dichroic%20glass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevep Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 is the money better spent on getting a method of lowering the lighting to ground level rather than getting new lights - that way you'll always be able to focus them as required? failing that how about a portable lighting rig - i.e. a few LED pars on tripods and T-bars which means you don't have to worry about the existing lanterns. We have a lot of these community campuses around here and they're mostly a right pain to work in, for most we end up bringing in a complete replacement for the front lighting mounted on stands rather than try to get up to the existing installed lighting. (Strangely all the on-stage stuff tends to be easily reached or already on winches) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junior8 Posted July 22, 2013 Share Posted July 22, 2013 Give them back the money and write the space off for all practical purposes. Sorry but they've been building such terrible multi-use spaces in schools for years - well before anything like PFI was mooted - and no amount of money ever makes them any better or less inconvenient. (I'd be prepared to bet that the blackout if any is useless too????) If the budget is available for anthing else I'd invest in portable gear. You can do all the teaching you need to do with a portable rig, indeed this would always be my preference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyparcans Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Hi Guys not been on for a while, I am hoping someone can help me. The school I work at is allowing me to put in a proposal for an upgrade and additional equipment to our performing space. My issue is I have never really brought or spec'd lighting before, only used and set it up etc. At the minute I have 3 bars with 24 lights of varying brands and types (all low budget stuff) however I have zero colour whatever, we don't have a way of reaching the lights and the school are really funny about working at height as we are run by a building company they don't even let me change bulbs and try to insist we use there own caretaking firm which charge us silly amounts to do it, so I would like some colour up on our bars that I can change from the desk so am thinking LED obviously. However I have zero idea where to start, I was wondering if anyone could recommend any companies that would be willing to come in and see the space and give me some advice and quote for us? as I want to make sure I get the right kit as the performing space has been unchanged for 10 plus years as far as I have been told. we are in Sheffield by the way, would massively appreciate any help. Hi we are an installation company who have done many various school and college lighting and sound installations. I agree with many of the post regarding the proposed install. Pm me if you want more info regarding our services. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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