Bass Cabinets - Yes or No?

[MisterJames]

Hello,

 

After some extensive research and posts on here, I have decided to purchase two EV ELX115P Powered Speakers. However I am unsure whether to also purchase two EV ELX118P Bass Cabinet. Money wise I can afford the two but would like to get rid of my Mackie PROFX22 mixer and replace it with an Allen & Heath ZED420. I could probably afford one bass cab but where do you put it with out it being dominate on one side of the mix even with a mono output?

 

At what point do you say... I do need a bass cabinet?

 

Through the mix goes... Bass guitar, electric, kick of the drum, snare, drum kit over head for symbols, x3 vocals and keyboard.

 

I know bass eats up wattage like mad but will just the ELX115P handle it for 2 hours a gig?

 

I am amateur and would appreciate some professional words of wisdom?

 

Regards

James

[kerry davies]

Since bass radiates (goes every bloody where) many systems such as the LD and HK Lucas use one sub bass, similar to the EV, and two "satellite" speakers which is more or less what you suggest. In fact just checking, the EV brochure has a system similar to that you suggest on the cover.

 

As with all things like this a live demo is worth ten pages of "advice". Only you know what sound you want, need or hope for.

 

I have no idea what you mean by "will the EV handle it for two hours a gig" but if you mean will it carry on pumping out noise for hours on end then yes, it will. My Lucas's seem to get better after several hours (and two or three small children fed to them in tiny pieces!) ;)

[BigYinUK]

To give you a proper answer I guess we really need to know what sort of music you're playing, what size venues you want to use this system at, and what sort of volume levels you're expecting to achieve.

 

My initial reaction, and I'm only an "amateur" too, is that bass guitar, kick drum and keys is pushing a bit for a small 15 inch active system without a sub.

[MisterJames]

I do agree I am pushing it with just using 15" speakers... In terms of music type... Its an Indi/pop band... They do a lot of covers by 'Train' 'scouting for girls' 'bon jovi' and random chart songs 'call me maybe' naming just one.

 

The band do not aim for concert volume, its more of gentle level with a good pump of the bass. Its hard to describe really - Most of the venues are community halls and modern church's with stages and large halls. Max 150 people?

 

Where would you ideally put a single bass cab?

[pisquee]

If going down the subs route, you may find you get better sound with 12" tops rather than 15" - don't know if this would shift your budget enough to get the two subs though.

Ideally, if using one sub, you'd want it in the middle of the two main speakers - if the hall/stage design allows it.

[paulears]

The advent of all these nice systems with a small sub (as in just one) sort of mess up the generally accepted physics a bit when they have the smaller tops - like the popular HKs and similar. An offset sub is rarely that evident. On one of my systems I ran with the left hand sub disconnected for two weeks without it being obvious at the mix position. With the smaller systems, the tops are a bit lacking at the bottom of their range, so the subs actually carry quite a bit more than just the bottom octave. I was at a wedding recently, and it was quite noticeable that the sub was to one side. The cabinets I have that have 2 x 15" and a horn need a crossover frequency very low. Just for the bottom octave or so, the subs do give a kick, but for much of what I do, I could actually do without them!

[TimmyP1955]

I'd go with a used MixWiz instead of a Zed.

 

Don't know those speakers, so I can't offer any opinion other than: You need subs, and likely better ones than those (based on my experience with past EV 1-15 offerings).

[S&L]

to summarise the above - this is about room coverage as much as about the sort of music you play.

and that room coverage is going to depend which room you play on which day.

I take 15" subs and 15" plus horn tops to many different sorts of with capacities anywhere between 40 and 150 and most of the time they cover fine and the bass being radial (see above) rarely suffers with coverage problems but I will use the following as an example of the issues a 4 box rig faces:

 

I engineered for a band at a wedding venue recently (pop/rock covers, Adele, maroon 5 etc) and used a 4 box set up. the room was almost square but due to limitations of table positions the band were offset to one side at one end of the room. the room being maybe 30m+ x 20m with covers for 80 or so guests at tables. ceiling wasn't high and the upholstery and carpet was lush. result?

the offset with two tops meant I had dead areas in my coverage particularly with female vocals. the room as a whole soaked up bass which I was 'just' able to cope with using 2 bass speakers and uplifting the bass frequencies that the upholstery seemed to be eating up!

 

placed centrally in a more forgiving room the same rig has no problems coping with delivering reasonable volumes across the range and throughout the room. in this example both tops and bins were left wanting and had I had access to a PA double the size I would have had better coverage and run the system ticking over.

 

I recently saw a professional engineer put in a serious HK rig to a pub venue of similar size with 4 tops and 8 subs and it still wasn't sufficient because of the size of crowd who soaked up all the sound so that the rear half of the bar was almost below conversational level. the guy engineering said to me - actually I could do with a delay tower in here

- in a pub!

and I don't think he was wrong, but he and the band had made a reasonable compromise given the size of venue, funds available and the likely size of crowd.

I guess what I am trying to say is that while you can develop a perfect solution for a fixed room (theatre etc) when you work in a wide variety of rooms and each one has a different challenge, your rig has to cover for most reasonable eventualities. given your brief is community halls and large halls up to 150 capacity I would say that a single sub will be found lacking sooner rather than later - but only you can decide whether that lack of coverage matters. you also need to decide what matters in terms of quality coverage - in rooms with up to a hundred I have 'got away' with no subs at all just 15" tops with horns - got away with it and will do it again if I HAVE to but for choice I wouldn't be without a pair of subs.

I'm running a desk considered generally worse than your mackie but if I was in your shoes I would be tempted to leave the new mixer on the wish list and concentrate on a rig that gave you reasonable coverage to majority of venues you are reasonably likely to play with that rig.

[Jivemaster]

A 15 and horn box on a stand will get a vaguely full range sound out to a small crowd, BUT it will not handle the bass or the vocals well. A 12 and horn will handle vocals better but this will fall very short of the bass requirements of bass and drums. so then you need a bass bin or two and a well set crossover.

[Jamesminion]

A band I regularly dep with use the elx 115p speakers as a front of house pair on their own and they sound great. They run drums, bass, 2 guitars and vocals through it. They generally play pubs and small clubs. I can imagine in a larger setting, then a pair of the 112s and a pair of subs would do better for bass/ mid-top punch.

[Brian]

Random thoughts...

 

1) Much as I hate the sound of 15" + horn boxes, dropping to a 12" would mean you are stuck with having to use a sub whereas using 15" boxes means that on smaller gigs you could get away with not taking the subs in.

 

2) But, IMHO, a better option is to go for some 10" + horn top boxes and some 15" subs. OK, you'll always have to use the subs but you'll have a better set-up. The subs don't need to go in the air so keep the weight at ground level. The top boxes will be lighter and nicer to put onto stands and can go up above head height to get the coverage down the length of nasty shaped rooms.

[stevefez]

...10" + horn top boxes and some 15" subs ... can go up above head height to get the coverage down the length of nasty shaped rooms.

What he said. There's nothing like not getting your tops high enough and having everything soaked up by the front 3 rows...

[J Pearce]

I'm a huge fan of 10" tops with 15" subs. Much clearer vocals, much easier on the back and much stabler at decent heights.

And better bass than just a pair of 15" + horns. Get active ones and the whole rig doesn't take much more space than big carpety disco cabs with an amp rack.

[Brian]

A quick look shows that for less money than the EV kit the OP could get a pair of dB Opera 410D and a pair of dB SUB15D or a pair of QSC K10 and a KSUB.

[S&L]

can I just underline and endorse what Brian said about tops lest there is confusion. I use 15" tops with horn on their own here and there (with bass and kick drum) and get an acceptable sound in smaller rooms without having to get out the subs - that's the only reason the 15" tops are there when I use the subs, all my tops (at the moment) happen to be 15" plus horn. you will get a much better sound (I think) with smaller tops AND a pair of subs.