Light Pollution 'Saturates' UK's Night Skies

[Adam L F]

An interesting article which I've spotted, not exactly an old problem although for some reason it has come up again, and is all over the radio, TV and internet. So why not start a debate within the lighting industry here on the forum?

 

An interesting quote from the BBC article I have been reading.

 

 

 

For the first time, national guidance has been issued by the government, to encourage local planning authorities to reduce light pollution through design improvements.

 

The National Planning Policy Framework, published at the end of March, states that by encouraging good design, planning policies and decisions "should limit the impact of light pollution from artificial light on local amenity, intrinsically dark landscapes and nature conservation".

 

Ms Marrington from the CPRE welcomed the move, saying poor excuses for bad or excessive lighting were heard too often.

 

 

Furthermore, I took part in a discussion on a well-known London radio station last night relating to the subject. It appears that many members of the public don't believe that any form of "design" goes into putting up street lights, or lighting in public places. Why do we think this is?

 

We all know that High Pressure Sodium is mainly used on our roads for visibility (mainly seeing further, but not in as much detail), why hasn't LED technology taken off yet, like it has in America and other countries?

[paulears]

Well my council solved light pollution here - they switch off the street lights at midnight, and it's amazing what the sky then looks like on a clear night!

[Ynot]

why hasn't LED technology taken off yet, like it has in America and other countries?

LED street lights do indeed exist - I had a couple on trial at the theatre as a possible working light source, but they were just not suitable (one of my guys has a day job in the street lighting industry!).

The problem is, however, that the investment involved in any authority changing out all the sodium lighting for ANY other alternative would be astronomical, so like with anything else, at least in the short term, I'd expect change-out to occur when units go faulty or a set has reached the end of it's projected usable life and is due to be replaced anyway.

[Seano]

So why not start a debate within the lighting industry here on the forum?

 

This forum deals with the wrong kind of lighting industry for that dunnit?

Surely the lampies here appreciate more than most the value of a good blackout? ;)

[J Pearce]

Should street lights be gelled with 181? :P

[Brian]

...why hasn't LED technology taken off yet, like it has in America and other countries?

Let me throw your question right back at you and ask why you think LED hasn't taken off and what advantages you think it would offer?

[ianl]

I was involved in a couple of projects at guildford cathedral.

It is lit with lots of sodium and halogen floods pointing up at it from a distance from the floor.

This washes most of the sky over guildford

 

The project tried led and modern low power discharge sources to lite the features from close up using lots more small sources.

 

It looked wonderful, it didnt polute the sky, it just lit the cathedral

 

There were many more complaints that it was too dark in the surounding area than compliments over the reduction in polution or the look

 

 

I've also done quite a lot of work on design of lighting in buildings, outside buildings on footpaths etc. and the conclusion is LED lighting of the required standard is still to expensive to be financially viable. Possibly for new builds ( I,m not convinced yet) but certainly no where near being able to swap out large chunks of existing lighting

[Adam L F]

Well my council solved light pollution here - they switch off the street lights at midnight, and it's amazing what the sky then looks like on a clear night!

 

They're also doing that down here in Watford town centre and some of the surrounding side roads, makes a change! Although not enough to be able to look up and see the stars, but I think that's wishful thinking on my part there. ;)

 

why hasn't LED technology taken off yet, like it has in America and other countries?

LED street lights do indeed exist - I had a couple on trial at the theatre as a possible working light source, but they were just not suitable (one of my guys has a day job in the street lighting industry!).

The problem is, however, that the investment involved in any authority changing out all the sodium lighting for ANY other alternative would be astronomical, so like with anything else, at least in the short term, I'd expect change-out to occur when units go faulty or a set has reached the end of it's projected usable life and is due to be replaced anyway.

 

How weren't these fixtures suitable? I'm guessing they didn't give enough coverage/illumination to your workspace?

 

So why not start a debate within the lighting industry here on the forum?

 

This forum deals with the wrong kind of lighting industry for that dunnit?

Surely the lampies here appreciate more than most the value of a good blackout? ;)

 

Haha I take your point ;)! Although, it is an interesting discussion, one which I believe everyone should be having, whether obsessed by things that glow or not.

 

...why hasn't LED technology taken off yet, like it has in America and other countries?

Let me throw your question right back at you and ask why you think LED hasn't taken off and what advantages you think it would offer?

 

I'll get back to you on that one! I'm currently running on battery power after a really long day!

 

I was involved in a couple of projects at guildford cathedral.

It is lit with lots of sodium and halogen floods pointing up at it from a distance from the floor.

This washes most of the sky over guildford

 

The project tried led and modern low power discharge sources to lite the features from close up using lots more small sources.

 

It looked wonderful, it didnt polute the sky, it just lit the cathedral

 

There were many more complaints that it was too dark in the surounding area than compliments over the reduction in polution or the look

 

 

I've also done quite a lot of work on design of lighting in buildings, outside buildings on footpaths etc. and the conclusion is LED lighting of the required standard is still to expensive to be financially viable. Possibly for new builds ( I,m not convinced yet) but certainly no where near being able to swap out large chunks of existing lighting

 

Interesting :-) I know of a few people who've worked on a project down there recently and seen a few pictures, looked very blue. :P Valid point about cost, although in the long run (and we are talking more of a marathon I guess), it'll start to pay back.

 

Perhaps in the case of the cathedral (having never been there myself, I can't comment on what it looks like around the area), some better path/street lighting could of been utilised, more directional perhaps? People are never happy are they. :D

[HolyPhish]

There was an article on BBC a few weeks back about this, along with some info/diagrams about where lights were pointing.

 

The issue is not so much with lights pointing at the ground it's more what they are pointing at that they shouldn't be. i.e. the sky, other buildings....

 

Now I know some people may pull out the security aspect but a lot of industrial buildings are over lit with huge halogens that dont need to be there. Driving round the M60 tho, mile after mile of building is lit up almost unnecessarily. But anyone driving down the A50 from Stoke to Derby will pass JCB World HQ which is virtually invisible at night. Why? Because all their security lights are motion sensitive. One movement and the whole building looks like God has inhabited it!

 

Now how much less light pollution would there be if everyone adopted the JCB model?

 

And thats just industrial units....

[matt c]

Because all their security lights are motion sensitive. One movement and the whole building looks like God has ....

 

 

That reminds me of an ad on telly a while back, which depicted a van / car driving down a motorway, with street rights turning on in front off the car, and turning off again behind it.

 

Can't remember what it was advertising.

 

I must say though, I'm always surprised by the amount of objects I can see in the sky at my parents house in rural lincolnshire, versus where I am now, near Bolsover.

[billy jim]

On this same vein, I've noticed that some motorways are turning off streetlights between midnight and 5am- why not all of them?! We're required to have our headlights on anyway, so why bother lighting something we're lighting ourselves individually?!

Same applies to A roads, and pretty much anywhere else that you wouldn't be expecting pedestrians during the night. City centres, in my opinion, should stay lit like a christmas tree throughout the night.

[kerry davies]

Hmmm (copyright Ynot) Methinks they are pulling your plonker with this one. This weeks news alone should give you a clue.

 

TATA to open new coalmines in South Wales.

Oil drilling licences issued for Poole Harbour.

Builders of Chernobyl invited to tender for new nukes/UK companies pull out of nuke building.

Tariff simplification does not mean prices for energy will be reduced.

Windfarms to cover Powys.

Shetland windfarm to supply 16 times as many homes as the whole archipelago contains.

Fracking licences granted all over UK.

 

Is it light pollution or energy security that they are concerned about? We have the least light polluted area in the UK in Powys yet our street lighting has been rationed for economic reasons for years now. Just coming your way now.

 

Edit to add; Tomorrows papers have the news that we are now talking to Iceland about using their Geothermal energy and cable power in directly from there, Spain and Norway

[Gareth A]

Some areas down near Keynsham have already swapped over to LED street lighting. Its also on sensors so it also dims and gets brighter depending on conditions around. No traffic they dim down also.

 

Cant remember where exactly, but was with a local resident who pointed it all out to me. And it works very well.

 

 

 

 

Also admittingly, where I am in China LED is definitely cheaper, partly on the basis a lot of it is made here or copied here, the entire of the public exhibition areas of the Expo Pavilion I work in is 100% led lit. Only for overnight lights do they revert to the discharge lamps. Partly as there is a lot less of them I guess, and saves lighting up the whole building for no reason.

 

I admit it was a new build in 2009 / 2010, but until now, only the transformers have actually failed, and most of that was due to some really bad mains power. Not 1 LED unit has had to be replaced yet. They look nice and they play nice.

 

 

What I have found interesting here, is like the UK where you can go into a "Lighting Shop" to buy your lights, China have pretty much already converted all of theirs over to "LED Lighting Shops" where everything you see is LED based. There is even a mega centre with about 50 shops - all led. And some of the stuff is REALLY nice. !

 

 

When you see things like that, you realise how far behind we are already. -

 

Totally off topic but just again how far China is ahead of us - banks and shops have already started to use fingerprint scanners for transactions about a two years ago now. Chip and pin was here 10 years ago. . . . . But for Chip and Pin, for double security, you still have to sign also. !

Sorry - totally off topic, but for a nation thats still only growing at the moment, things like this WE really should be copying more! Apparently card fraud is very very low here. ! Ok, maybe the threat of "Re-education camp" doesn't help, but still. !

[dbuckley]

Light pollution is a problem.

 

Out local Council recommending in its ten year plan that all the old mercury vapour and fluorescent street lights in the district should be replaced by LEDs.

 

In our area many of our street lights are of the sort that are up for replacement, and in my submission on the plan I point out that we are an observatory town, and please can they consider light pollution when selecting the replacement lamps. We have a floodlit ground which on Monday nights is used for rugger practice, and thus on Monday nights the observatory is closed.

 

Here's a (timed exposure) pic of the sky over Christchurch (50KM-ish away) which is a big place with lots of street lights, and you can see the amount of light on the clouds.

 

http://davidbuckley.name/pix/chch_night_sky.jpg

[Andrew Edwards]

Why should changing the type of light source for bog standard street/road lighting reduce light pollution. If a particular amount and temperature of light has been deemed necessary then surely the source is irrelevant. One simply chooses the lamp that provides the required amount of light with respect to ones budget.

 

I have been looking for replacements for the now obsolete 300w E40 that we use for our house lights for some time (Fortunately, I have about 5 years stock left). I have stumbled upon numerous LED replacements for street lights and they are in the region of 10 times the price of traditional sources and most state an efficiency saving of about 50% despite the wattage difference being more than that. We have mercury vapour for our work lights and half of them have had the same lamp for over 10 years and the rest are only slightly behind. I would wager they do about the same duty as you average street light. Many of the LED replacements state an approximate 10-12 year life.

It would seem that swapping out your current sources for LED just isn't cost effective.

 

Now redesigning the entire layout, focus and temperature of the lighting to create the requires amount of illumination using the least amount of power and minimising undesired spill is another thing entirely.

 

Although having said all that, if we just switched all the street lights to cheap LED then light pollution would be reduced because the output of each fixture would be considerably less. :P