Linking two Soundcraft mixers

[Bobbsy]

Just to second what Laolu said, if channel count is short, you don't necessarily need to tie up two useful channel strips on the GB4.

 

When I've done the sub mixer routine, I've often used something like a stereo effects return on the master mixer--just feed a tone of known level through the sub and into the master to calibrate levels, then anything you see on the sub mixer will be passed through the GB4 at the same level.

 

I'd also give a +1 to thinking about what you put on each mixer so the lack of a common PFL isn't so critical--there are always some inputs where this is less of an issue.

[howartp]

To input into an insert is technically a possible solution, although the insert is not meant for that, I know. I frequently use a group return on our Soundcraft Delta as FX return, - there are those nice red faders sitting there, which can be used to add something to the main mix. Of course with all the disadvantages already mentioned. The Delta has the (also nice) feature of adding group out to AUX1 (which I use for the stage monitors) so I can easily dosage the amount of FX that I want in the monitors and in the main mix. Just a thought.

Thanks Laolu; I'll see which works out best when I sort out my channel counts for each show. Can't say I've ever used Groups on any desk; most I've used is Subs with their own output (rather than to Mix) - my Church has 4 speaker pairs for our Panto, which go on Sub L, Sub R, Mix L and Mix R - depends on the effects needed whether I wire them front-to-back or in L/R pairs. I rarely use Stereo correctly. Aux 1, 2 and 3 are variously the Dressing Rooms, Loop, Effect speaker (buried on stage for special SFX), or Sound2Light as determined by the show's needs.

 

Just to second what Laolu said, if channel count is short, you don't necessarily need to tie up two useful channel strips on the GB4.

 

When I've done the sub mixer routine, I've often used something like a stereo effects return on the master mixer--just feed a tone of known level through the sub and into the master to calibrate levels, then anything you see on the sub mixer will be passed through the GB4 at the same level.

 

I'd also give a +1 to thinking about what you put on each mixer so the lack of a common PFL isn't so critical--there are always some inputs where this is less of an issue.

Thanks Bobbsy.

 

When you say a tone of known level etc, are you saying I should play this through the master desk, set it to a reasonable volume and watch the little lights bouncing to a set level, then put the same tone through the second desk and adjust the volumes on the second desk and input volume on master desk to that the little lights are the same level? (Technical terminology aside!)

 

Agree with your quote about PFL, but what I tend to do is use one set of phones with 3.5mm plug which I swap between both desks - each having its own 3.5mm-6.25mm adapter permanently in the phones socket so that a) the re-connect is quicker/softer in a 3.5mm socket, and b) it saves wear & tear on the desk's socket.

 

Peter

[Simon Lewis]

either or at -10db and or at +4dB

 

 

usually -10dBV or +4dBu - so it's not a 14dB difference ;-)

[paulears]

If you are sub-mixing, you also have another optional way of working.

 

Instead of thinking stereo, you use the pans on the sub mixer to isolate a group that the main mixer will use 'differently'.

 

Lets assume you have a bunch of music input on the sub-mixer. You could find that the MD may also be doing the incidental music on his own, with the band joining in for the bigger numbers - but some of this incidental music is also played by him on a synth. He will balance the two together in the pit. So route those two to say channel 20, panned centre on the main mixer. All the others, with their pan position 100% the other way get fed to the main kmix on channel 21, again panned centre. The mixer op then has the ability to balance the band against the MD against the rest of the inputs, so you can perhaps get the voice balanced against the piano, and then bring up the band to level it out.

 

Or maybe in pant with a percussionist, you could segregate his mics to the first input, the band including MD to the other. If you are sub mixing radios, principals to the left, chorus to the right.

 

I'm not a stereo fan for theatre for the band - too wide for conventional stereo. If I do do a stereo mix of the orchestra and radio'd chorus it will be gentle - I don't do full width pans because somebody always misses out.

[Bobbsy]

 

 

When you say a tone of known level etc, are you saying I should play this through the master desk, set it to a reasonable volume and watch the little lights bouncing to a set level, then put the same tone through the second desk and adjust the volumes on the second desk and input volume on master desk to that the little lights are the same level? (Technical terminology aside!)

 

Agree with your quote about PFL, but what I tend to do is use one set of phones with 3.5mm plug which I swap between both desks - each having its own 3.5mm-6.25mm adapter permanently in the phones socket so that a) the re-connect is quicker/softer in a 3.5mm socket, and b) it saves wear & tear on the desk's socket.

 

Peter

 

 

No, I mean play a test tone through the sub desk (I used to have a generator but you could use a CD or other player) and set that to 0dB on the meters. Then adjust the master mixer (your GB4) so that the meters there also read 0dB. After that, anything you do on the sub mixer will be reflected exactly the same on the main mix.

[Matt Riley]

May I suggest, given the relatively small difference in cost, that you will find yourself in a far easier situation if you just buy the 32 channel desk! I've faffed around with trying to submix before, and it's just terribly frustrating, especially if you ever find yourself having to use effects or monitor sends as well with it!

[indyld]

May I suggest, given the relatively small difference in cost, that you will find yourself in a far easier situation if you just buy the 32 channel desk! I've faffed around with trying to submix before, and it's just terribly frustrating, especially if you ever find yourself having to use effects or monitor sends as well with it!

 

Although I suspect the option of a bigger desk may well be out for many users, it brings up a good point.

 

When submixing, as outlined above, you carefully select inputs that you don't need on the main UI. When you've discounted radio mics (deffo not those) and other things you need effects on or mixed into monitors, things that you want to compress in Group inserts/VCAs whatever - invariably you end up with about 3 inputs that you feel you could conveniently submix

 

Unless you are lucky enough to be able treat the second mixer to it's own outboard and sends, almost like a different system, you attempt to find ways about the FX / Mons issue. This uses up more Aux sends and inputs on the main desk, simply to create this gain stage carbuncle that eat into another 4 inputs on the main desk. This can end up meaning moving more and more over to the submix desk until you are back to square one.

 

If you can treat the band to a whole desk of their own, deal with most Mons through that and maybe send one or two mixes through to the main for vox monitors etc. then bring the whole lot ready for output together in 2 channels of desk one, you might be in with a shout. Anything other than Band / Mics split ends up being a massive bodge that causes more problems than it solves.

 

But then, by the time you've got access to two decent sized mixers to be able to facilitate this, you gotta wonder if it isn't just easier to get one that the right size. It makes operating a one person job again, although a two op job isn't a bad idea - it worked for moving light / generic rigs.