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Linking two Soundcraft mixers


howartp

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Hi,

 

We currently have a Soundcraft EPM12 in our school hall.

 

We are building a new theatre and will have 15 of our own Radio Mics with another 11 available to us for larger events, which obviously doesn't fit on our current desk.

 

Rather than a 32-channel desk, I'm looking at getting a 24-channel (Soundcraft GB4) and plugging our existing EPM12 into it when necessary - We won't use many more than 8-10 of the mics during normal events (plus stand mics, DI Boxes etc) so a 32 will be over-spec when we already have a 12 sitting around.

 

Whenever I've done this in the past (I have a Spirit Folio of my own which I occasionally use with the EPM12) I've run one or two XLRs from the L/R Mix outputs on the 2nd desk into normal Mic channels on the 1st desk which has worked fine.

 

However just reading the GB4 userguide I noticed the Inserts on the L/R Mix outputs which got me thinking whether I should actually be Inserting the EPM12 into the mix somewhere rather than using up Mic channels? (I've never used Inserts so if I'm talking rubbish, please do tell me)

 

As I write this, I've just realised that those particular Inserts won't be any use as we use the Aux's for other outputs which will presumably be missing the extra mics if I only insert them into the L/R Mix?

 

Any thoughts appreciated.

 

Peter

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Sub mixers are common. The real issue is that you lose the useful things like PFL - using two mixers means two sets of headphones and having to take one off and put another on. Other than that, It's a perfectly workable solution. Especially so if you actually split the inputs into two people too - then you could have radios in one mixer, then other sources in the other and share the mix?

 

You lose the ability to share general FX and it's a bit more complicated, but that's all. I often sub-mix orchestras/band in the pit, and they appear as a stereo feed in the other mixer. Just plan the channel layout carefully.

 

The inserts aren't meant to be used to introduce extra inputs. A custom made cable that you can use to link the inserts on the main mixer and also plug into the outputs of the other could work - if the levels are similar, but no real need to try this bodge if you have spares. If you end up with spare channels on the main mixer, you could have Left, Right, Aux 1 and Aux 2 coming in, so that any monitoring needs can be made to work, if needed.

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you want the desk connected to inputs. not insert.

 

inserts are for applying dynamic effects to that channel alone.

 

compression for example, noise gate for guitar for example.

 

use two inputs panned left and right or a stereo inout if you have one, so then you only have to deal with a single fader.

 

it doesn't matter if the source audio comprises a a zillion mics, the EPM is just a stereo input to the souncraft if you can do that on one fader, so much the better..:)

 

 

two XLR's, left right mix, out of one in to two line in on the other. XLR to balanced jack most likely.

 

 

quoting you, going from line out to mic in is not ideal or correct.....

 

 

I've run one or two XLRs from the L/R Mix outputs on the 2nd desk into normal Mic channels on the 1st desk which has worked fine.

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quoting you, going from line out to mic in is not ideal or correct...
But if the larger mixer will accept a balanced line in on it's XLR connector (which I'm sure it will, you just need to engage the pad switch) then what's wrong with that? I suspect the OP means going into the XLR, not the "mic in"? :)
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in my experience of mixing desks, a channel has had a female XLR for a mic in, a balanced TRS for a line in, a TRS for an insert and a TRS for a direct out and a female XLR for a tape input. so forgive me if I havent seen ax XLR which is switchable I am acustomed to dual XLR inputs.

 

either way, going from line out +4 dB to a line in +4dB would be preferable in any studio I have worked in .

 

the pad switch is desgined to pad a kick drum microphone, not a -10dB or possible +4dB line level signal in to a mic input.

 

impedance............

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Thanks guys.

 

Sub mixers are common. The real issue is that you lose the useful things like PFL - using two mixers means two sets of headphones and having to take one off and put another on. Other than that, It's a perfectly workable solution. Especially so if you actually split the inputs into two people too - then you could have radios in one mixer, then other sources in the other and share the mix?

Ah, good - I thought I was just botching things as usual for the sake of saving a bit more money! Liking the idea of two operators - hadn't thought of that.

 

you want the desk connected to inputs. use two inputs panned left and right or a stereo inout if you have one, so then you only have to deal with a single fader.

it doesn't matter if the source audio comprises a a zillion mics, the EPM is just a stereo input to the souncraft if you can do that on one fader, so much the better..:)

 

two XLR's, left right mix, out of one in to two line in on the other. XLR to balanced jack most likely.

That's a great idea - I normally use two Mic XLR channels in; never thought of running it into the stereo channel - I have two stereo channels, and I only use one for the PC (SFX/Video) so that definitely saves me two channels.

 

quoting you, going from line out to mic in is not ideal or correct...
But if the larger mixer will accept a balanced line in on it's XLR connector (which I'm sure it will, you just need to engage the pad switch) then what's wrong with that? I suspect the OP means going into the XLR, not the "mic in"? :)

 

in my experience of mixing desks, a channel has had an XLR for a mic in, a balanced TRS for a line in, a TRS for an insert and a TRS for a direct out and an XLR for a tape input.

Now now, no fighting! :)

 

What I said was typographically correct - I said I usually connect one or two XLRs (depending how many inputs I can spare (and thus run either mono or stereo)) from either just the L, or both L/R, XLR mix outputs and connect it into one or two XLR Mic inputs on the main mixer. Now I may be technically incorrect, but what I typed was what I do.

 

Technically speaking, are you saying that the Mix outputs from a desk are line-level? I had always presumed they were mic-level, as my experience is that mixers are mainly used for mixing mics or DI'd instruments and thus I presumed the desk would be core mic-level with the line-level inputs 'modified' (non-technical term) after they enter the board? If I'm wrong then I acknowledge why you implied I said 'going from line-out to mic in'.

 

Peter

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Yes, but we're not talking studio desks here are we? :) Most studio mixers are better equipped than livesound mixers, but studio desks also cost rather a lot more.

 

Yes- mixers tend to be outputting at a line level - better for long runs and all of that. :)

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Yes, but we're not talking studio desks here are we? :) Most studio mixers are better equipped than livesound mixers, but studio desks also cost rather a lot more.

Sorry David, you've lost me - which bit of the conversation is that referring to?

 

Yes- mixers tend to be outputting at a line level - better for long runs and all of that. :)

Ah, my mistake - I'll correct that on my permanent install at Church tomorrow as well then. :)

 

Peter

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Yes- mixers tend to be outputting at a line level - better for long runs and all of that. :)

 

I am sorry to be picky, its not personal.

 

mixers do not 'tend' to 'output' at a line level.

 

they do it defacto.

 

either or at -10db and or at +4dB

 

mixers do not 'output' at mic level unless it is a specialised mic mixer or a radio mic with the 'option' of sending a mix at -50dB

 

http://en.wikipedia....I/Nominal_level

 

http://www.tdpri.com...php/t-9353.html

 

quote:

 

+4dB was standardized so that something could be recorded in one studio and mixed in another studio, and the test tones at the beginning of the reel with a standard +4dB level could be used to make sure the second studio would have consistent levels and frequency response with the first studio.

 

"Consumer" gear is designed for -10 dB use mainly due to the fact that it is less expensive to design circuits with less clean gain.

 

In practice, a lot of gear today offers a choice between balanced +4 dB I/O and unbalanced -10 dB I/O. Check the back of a Mackie mixer for a real world example- you have a choice of XLR and 1/4" main outputs- the former are +4 dB and the latter are -10 dB.

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mixers do not 'tend' to 'output' at a line level.

they do it defacto.

 

either or at -10db and or at +4dB

 

mixers do not 'output' at mic level unless it is a specialised mic mixer or a radio mic with the 'option' of sending a mix at -50dB

If you're going to be picky, at least be consistent. You contradict yourself here in the last paragraph of my quote.

 

There are several mixers that output at a mic level, but they are usually ENG field mixers. This is an example of such a mixer.

 

Therefore, mixers do "tend to" output at line level, especially the mixers we see in theatres, but it's not uncommon for small shows to only use small mixers - and if a field mixer is all that's available, then why not use it?

 

David :)

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I shall continue to disagree.

 

'tend to' suggests to me, as the norm

 

it is not normal for a mixer to produce a -50dB o/p unless as I suggest, it is specialised, like an ENG mixer you use as an example.

 

this type of mixer takes up a very small % of mixing options imo.

 

no one in thier right mind would want to send -50dB of level down any length of cable given the otption of sending it at +4dB

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What do you want me to say then?

 

"Mixers usually (approximately 95% of all mixers in the world) have +4dB balanced level output, though your experience may vary and you should consult the literature of the products you wish to interconnect to assess the suitability of the method of interconnection without external level-matching equipment or cables."

 

<_<

 

Let's agree to disagree on the semantics of the English language then, shall we? By the by, your background (gleaned from your profile) seems to be mainly studio based work, in case you weren't aware there are quite a few differences between studio situations and live events/theatre. :)

 

David

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To input into an insert is technically a possible solution, although the insert is not meant for that, I know.

 

I frequently use a group return on our Soundcraft Delta as FX return, even if I do not I run out of regular mic or stereo channels. I have to add that I very rarely use groups anyway, so - - there are those nice red faders sitting there, which can be used to add something to the main mix. Of course with all the disadvantages already mentioned.

 

The Delta has the (also nice) feature of adding group out to AUX1 (which I use for the stage monitors) so I can easily dosage the amount of FX that I want in the monitors and in the main mix.

 

Just a thought.

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