speakers and amps

[Paul J Need]

I am sorry to have to say this but you are way off the mark here. Paul is a wise old guy and knows what he's talking about.

:( Thanks Dave........ but less of he OLD please eh??? ;)

 

I agree with your very long response. If the purists had anything to do with it we would all be using 6mm speaker cable for the control 1's in the bar. B)

 

Any half decent audio engineer may tell you to get the very best sound out of system is 10% the kit (of which I beleive 75% of this is the box), 50% know how and 40% having enough time to set the system up properly. If budgets are limited.. and in Fiona's case it probably is. Then Spend as much as possible, as the budget will allow on the box. Obviously leaving enough to afford an amp to drive the flamin! thing.

 

All I am going to add to this matter is COVERAGE, COVERAGE COVERAGE....... For this you need decent speakers, know what they do, know a thing or two about dispersion angles and you have almost won the battle. AND YES you can use use cable sizes less than 6mm!!!!

[themadhippy]

might be worth while looking at bk electronics for the amp,you can get em either already to use or just the modules to case yourself,been using there amps for quite a few years and they aint let me down yet(unlike a couple of "better"knowen makes). As for cableing good old 2.5mm twin and earth for the fixed wiring and a break out box at either end with a bit of 1.5mm flex terminated in whatever conector you need.As as already been mentioned the hardest bit is the speakers,what are you using at the moment?couldnt you get another pair of the same

[Angelic]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Dave - we're writing essays now :( - sorry, in a silly mood!

 

I couldn't agree with you more there Dave, it's been known for me to use emergency cabling for some gigs (I work as a DJ - one of the good ones, don't worry!) i.e. many moons ago I have used all of my cabling up and have resorted to grabbing a reel of 3 core mains cable from the van to use as speaker cable. It has also been known for me to use OFC cable - cost difference of somewhere in the region of £Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.! There's naff all difference between the sound qualities.

 

Get top speakers and get a top sound - the amp is of little to no importance. I spend good money (or used to - I've gone to Mackie active now, which, btw, I can heartily endorse!) on amps, only so that they will last longer out on the road. When the amp is not getting kicked about to buggery in the back of the van, it's quality doesn't matter as much as people think!

 

However, I'm sure people will say I'm wrong and that active just aren't as good etc. (believe me, they are!) - but as Paul said, eeryone has their own opinions about sound!

 

Regards,

 

Rich.

[Peter Russell]

We could go on about this one forever, I think that we can all agree to disagree that sound is a very subjective subject ;) :D

Fiona, In this case I think you could do a lot worse than look at the couple of suggestions that I have put below

 

Samson Servo 260 Amplifier £155.99

Terralec List Ohm Mr260i's at £238.10 each and a hanging frame will cost you £13.90 each

Now these aren't the best speakers in the world but I have used them in a couple of small London Fringe venues and they aren't bad cabinets, although a little lacking in high end.

Other speakers worth a look for the money are RCF/Mackie make a range called the monitor series, we use the monitor 4's at work but they may be a bit small for your requirements. Also the JBL Contractor 28 are worth looking/Listening to. They come with wall brackets at £315 (+vat) a pair.

In a world full of confusion, I hope that this makes everything as clear as mud :( :D . PM me if you want to go into it further. Peter

[robloxley]

Some more specific suggestions:

 

An Inter-M QD4480 for four channels of amp (around £300).

 

At the budget end of speakers you could got for JBL control 23s or 25s, or some RCF monitor 5s or 8s or some Martin EM15s; all around the price you mentioned.

 

Leave some cash to pay for mounting brackects, cabling and connectors.

[Fiona]

Thanks all!! See, this is a prime example of why I don't do sound.......all just far too confusing and subjective....I like to know black is black and white is white!!!!

Thanks for your help tho' - has given me a few things to mull over....(just off to have a look at your suggestions Peter)...will let you know what I end up with.......someone else has recommended Yamaha S12e speakers and a Yamaha P1600 amp........any comments... :( ..??

[adi]

There you are then...lots of simplified, non-technical, jargon free answers for you... :( Lots of talk of SPL's and drop off rates is what you want...

I wrote all this crap below and then decided you should just do the suggestion at the end of it.. so I was going to delete it all but I cant be bothered. sO youre gonna have to read it...

 

 

 

 

It can be broken down a bit simpler...

 

- Regarding coverage problems with the sound. If youre having trouble getting coverage in the venue you need to find some with as wide a dispersion throw as possible. This is basically how far you can stand to the side of a speaker without losing the sound quality.

Some speakers are very directional and if you get the wrong ones you can move five feet to the left and lose a lot of sound, especially in a small venue.

If your venue is kinda squareish or wider than it is long then when you ring up and buy some you want to ask for as wider coverage angle as possible (they'll know what you mean) and this will hopefully fill in the coverage holes. These do however tend to have less forward throw so if your venue is long and thin (like me) then you need to do the opposit and get narrow directionals. This will help with your coverage problems.

Height of placement and also angle will make a huge difference as well. You could always add another set of speakers to fill in the 'holes' but this creates its own set of problems. Dont fit one in each corner of the room as it'll sound really strange in the wrong venue. If the problem is that the sound isnt hitting the back, then this is because you probably have a 'dead' room and the wrong speakers in it. Fitting the right speakers at the front can help improve things more than adding extra speakers at the rear. And yes you definately need a full range graphic to set the EQ if you can afford it.

 

 

 

The Yamaha P series amps are (from my appaling memory) quite good, and I think we even used one as a montor amp at the day centre/drop in centre we both worked at... from what youve told me before about your venue you should be okay with 200/300 watt per side amp, such as the P1600 at 230...you could do with a bit more I guess but budget and all that. Yamaha is a safe and simple bet , perhaps the H3000 would be better though (I've just cheated and looked it up).

 

Apart from that, match your speakers to your amp.. if you've got a 300 watt per channel at 8ohm amp then get 300w rated speakers (minimum) at 8 ohms (most pro speakers are 8 ohm). Most amps will allow you to run two speakers off one line and will accept changes in impedance (ohms) created by doing this. So yes if you really wanted to you could add extra pairs, but you havent got enough money so you cant ;)

 

 

Theres also the issue of seperates or combined units. Seperates are better (one speaker for low frequencies, one for mid/high) but then youre getting into talk of extra equipment to run them.

 

Its really difficult without seeing the venue... perhaps we could have broke in at the weekend and had a look if I'd thought of it...

 

Perhaps even your best bet would be to just ring up a pro-audio company and get them to come out and spec you a system, but with the low budget im not sure how many would do that. Perhaps you could get extra money by selling items of woolly clothing..

 

 

Basically, everyones got opinions, and everyones right in their own way, but it doesnt help you stuck at the end of it all... so you either suck it and see (no going back once youve bought it), or ring up for someone to spec it.. personally if it was me being you I'd do the latter.

 

adi

[Paul J Need]

Fiona,

 

THe Yamaha's are an ok budget loudspeaker.... amps are not bad. but have a look at the Mackie SRM450, an active self powered speaker, which will blow the Sm12 away.

 

You are in SW London right?? Would you like to borrow a pair to play with???

 

Paul

 

PS if you don;t want to go down the self powered route, there is the C300, active, but requires a seperate amplifier. Rated at 300w @8ohms. The detail from either are excellent. A good match would be the QSC RMX850 amplifier. An amplifier shoudl usually be slightly larger than the speaker you're driving. It shoudl NEVER be too small. as you can get into square wave problems. and its these that cause damage to the drivers.

[adi]

Just curious , but why would you get into square wave problems from running an underpowered amp? Presumably you mean by the effect of a clipped output? I can understand it from the point of view of the drivers being fed a too large signal, but not the other way round.

[Angelic]

Very good suggestion Paul, you pipped me to the post - the Mackie SRM450s are fantastic - small size, punchy output, plenty of bass, plenty of treble and they're generally quite nice. Self powered means all you have to do is run an output from the back of your mixer to the, plug them into the mains and away you go! The only problem is they're a tad on the expensive side - but remember, you don't need to buy a separate amp to run them!

 

Regards,

 

Rich.

[Dave]

Just curious , but why would you get into square wave problems from running an underpowered amp? Presumably you mean by the effect of a clipped output? I can understand it from the point of view of the drivers being fed a too large signal, but not the other way round.

When a power amp clips it produces a signal resembling a square wave. This has a lot more high frequency energy than normal speech or music, which is what loudspeakers are designed for. All that energy goes into the tweeter, which gets fried.

 

So clipping your power amp (which most frequently occurs when it's too small) is not a good idea.

[adi]

ah, makes sense.. although 'high frequency energy' is clutching at straws for terminology.. :( I mean that in a jesty light hearted way...

 

anyway, back to Fiona's students amps...

[Dave]

Thanks all!!  See, this is a prime example of why I don't do sound.......all just far too confusing and subjective....I like to know black is black and white is white!!!!  

Thanks for your help tho' - has given me a few things to mull over....(just off to have a look at your suggestions Peter)...will let you know what I end up with.......someone else has recommended Yamaha S12e speakers and a Yamaha P1600 amp........any comments... :( ..??

To get back to the topic in hand...

 

The Yamaha S12e are very much in the cheap and cheerful category, but are a lot for the money. If you can stretch to a bit more you could get the Yamaha S122IV which has a compression tweeter that is much better - you're probably looking at £50 more per box.

 

The P1600 is a bit on the underpowered side for these speakers (see my post above), unless the people using the system will be restrained. A P4500 would be a much better match.

 

Can I just remind people that Fiona was originally looking for four speakers and an amp for a budget of around £900. Four S12e and a P4500 come in at £917+VAT at StudioSpares prices. I'd guess the street price for four SRM-450s is likely to be about twice that.

 

But the above may be overkill for a 100 seat venue given the usage (music/effects and occasional vocal mics). The sort of things that Rob suggested could well be sufficient.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Dave.

 

P.S. Paul - IMO the QSC RMX850 is too small for the C300s. It's rated at 200 wpc/8ohm or 300 wpc/4 ohm. Did you mean an RMX1850HD, which seems a better match. Also, what did you mean when you said the C300 was active??

[Paul J Need]

Thanks all!!  See, this is a prime example of why I don't do sound.......all just far too confusing and subjective....I like to know black is black and white is white!!!!  

Thanks for your help tho' - has given me a few things to mull over....(just off to have a look at your suggestions Peter)...will let you know what I end up with.......someone else has recommended Yamaha S12e speakers and a Yamaha P1600 amp........any comments... ;) ..??

To get back to the topic in hand...

 

The Yamaha S12e are very much in the cheap and cheerful category, but are a lot for the money. If you can stretch to a bit more you could get the Yamaha S122IV which has a compression tweeter that is much better - you're probably looking at £50 more per box.

 

The P1600 is a bit on the underpowered side for these speakers (see my post above), unless the people using the system will be restrained. A P4500 would be a much better match.

 

Can I just remind people that Fiona was originally looking for four speakers and an amp for a budget of around £900. Four S12e and a P4500 come in at £917+VAT at StudioSpares prices. I'd guess the street price for four SRM-450s is likely to be about twice that.

 

But the above may be overkill for a 100 seat venue given the usage (music/effects and occasional vocal mics). The sort of things that Rob suggested could well be sufficient.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Dave.

 

P.S. Paul - IMO the QSC RMX850 is too small for the C300s. It's rated at 200 wpc/8ohm or 300 wpc/4 ohm. Did you mean an RMX1850HD, which seems a better match. Also, what did you mean when you said the C300 was active??

Hiya,

 

Think I had typed the word ACTIVE far too many times and added one too many. Just to confirm the C300 is a passive speaker :(

[Metro]

Sorry! Maybe what I said was stupid and you guys are right! Im an LD! So there we go. Im a student and what I told you is what I have been taught from other people in the industry. Sorry Paul for saying you were wrong! You seem to know more than me about sound.