Dom Hart Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Hello to all, I am opening up this discussion and hoping to invite industry theatre technicians, management, users and suppliers to talk openly about their views on LED fixtures in theatre. Do they have a place? Do they live up to the standards set by single source generic lanterns? Do the colours match up to what is required by specialists and high profile designers? Is the dimming pattern and instensity efficient and effective? There are many questions relating to this subject and many more to come. My case of study for this topic is theatre, specifically the merits of moving from traditional dimming systems to DMX controlled LED fixtures. There is now the opportunity for new build theatres to consider this option, equally it may be the case that older venues soon look at these options as well? Do you think this is the case? Is there a market? Will this happen? Is this happening? All posts are welcome from all areas . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitlane Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Have you read Fred Foster's article in February's LSI? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 And have you taken time to browse this forum for such comment as has already been made?There are LOTS of topics here that discuss just what you've asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LampTramp Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Between the lines, sounds like an other 'can you do my project for me' post.There are lots of threads re LED on here.. a good one is about the Robe 600.However as Kitlane says LSI have had some very good reports and features about the future of LED.. Go on line and sign up to LSI and download the on line issues... Your p'file says that you work at the The New Theatre Royal, so have you not seen or used LED in the venue? Talked to LD's that have lit shows there what they think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom Hart Posted March 8, 2012 Author Share Posted March 8, 2012 Hello Ynot, thank you for the heads up. I am aware of the fullness of the debate and have studied this for months but felt that it might be good to get some very up to date feelings from people like yourself. Hi LampTramp, believe me I never let people do my work for me otherwise I wouldnt be on here asking people directly to get another angle on the argument. I have so far interviewed and contacted over 150 LD's with widely varying answers, some have surprised me very much indeed. I have just had the pleaseure to talk through the new Philips Selecon range and have had hands on time with the prototype equipment also. I'm quite beyond educational projects (if thats what you mean) I'm afraid as I've graduated long ago, so this is very much a feeler for other opinions rather than simply sticking kit in for the sake of it. I know exactly what I want to install, but will that be right in a year or two, will that allow the same people free and easy use of the systems and lighting? This is my debate, I really do welcome your comments as they will make a massive difference in getting it right for designers and touring technicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono9691 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hi Dom, Haha..... :) .......nice. My thoughts are that led is progressing in leaps and bounds,there are so many products out there each with cons and pros not forgettingprice. Theoreticaly led technolodgy can reproduce specific wavelengths of light and very spacifically, because led produces exact wavelengths instead of filtering out unwanted wavelengths, it's has the potential to be superior to tungsten.In ten years or so I think it will be vastly superior for exact color creation. Unfortunatly for high end performing arts it's too difficult to control or recreate exact color and intensity output letalone curves between nm's.It's the way lighting will go, but needs more rnd and time to evolve. Just my $0.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Theoreticaly led technolodgy can reproduce specific wavelengths of light and very spacifically, because led produces exact wavelengths instead of filtering out unwanted wavelengths, it's has the potential to be superior to tungsten.In ten years or so I think it will be vastly superior for exact color creation. Except that LEDs can only produce a number of discrete wavelengths. Mess around with the chemistry all you want but the fundamental physics of the devices means that this will never change. You will never get LEDs where you can choose, even at the time of manufacture, any wavelength you want. You can add a phosphor 'coating' but once you start doing this efficiency goes down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jono9691 Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Hence "RND" needed and 10 years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 There is a holiday centre near me re-equiping with 'green friendly' lighting, but it was clear from the spec that all that had been considered was the quest to go green. Fixtures were quoted only in vague terms - LED moving head wash light. To be installed on a truss. No distances or truss locations, no stage depth or height, no information on where the front of house truss was going to go with it's LED par cans. So no thought as to quality and quantity of light, just taking a previous formula and assuming that you replace a discharge was with a LED wash, and a par can with a LED par can. We provided an equally vague quote, with the statement that price range could be between X and Y depending on location to be advised - which it wasn't. I really didn't like the sound of this one at all - so was not too sad to not get the job. I'm going to love seeing the results when it's built ready for the summer. There are some excellent LED products, but the price is out of all proportion to what they do! My pet worry at the moment is that equipment at somewhere around 5 times the current price is being marketed with replacement light engine capability as a 'benefit'. This, I feel, is a bit of a con. The LED contribution is the reason the cost hike is necessary, so next year or the year after when the newer light engine is available in the new equipment, your two year old one won't match any more, so you have to find budget to upgrade the not yet paid for original? You buy some very expensive stock for your venue - spending perhaps 4 or 5 times the price of the non LED products. Then in an upgrade buy more expensive fixtures that need you to spend more on the old? Can you imagine NOT doing this. You go to the store to find the two you need are old and new, so won't match - how much of a pain will that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley R Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 Thus is one of the reasons why I buy from china for all my LED Par's. Simply after a year or less the LED's that ive bought in sufficient qty have become obsolete, and I buy the new stuff coming onto the market in my price range (Useually under $200 per fixture) and im finding the quality is getting better and better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dom Hart Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 So taking in all thats been said it seems to be only pars and floods that people are dipping their toe with. I can definitely see the pro's for usings LED pars for dance and music events, even going so far as to use wash lights and floods as well... has anyone had the chance to use one of the LED based profiles yet? I have had some use of the Phillips PL3 and SPX prototypes (now moving into the market) and they look fantastic, but as has been said...the unit price is totally unrealistic as a venue stocked item. Even as a touring item they are not feasible. If they were to reduce the cost to more in the region of twice the cost of the equivilant generic then I think I would jump in with both feet, that is also after taking into account problems with second generation mismatching and even with repair/replace costs. The major problem is that we are in the middle ground of a potential lighting change, in my mind it is like VCR to DVD, CD to minidisk, CRT to LCD... this transition will likely take much longer or alternatively not entirely happen at all!? The problem that leaves for theatres which are currently rekitting, refitting or opening as new is that of dimming or hot power? What is the best option to cover for the future yet achieve the best practices for the present within a sound budget not even mentioning going 'green'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramdram Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 (Warning: subjective mode.) Leds in "real theatre", meh! Ditto amdram. Why? Dimming curve (hah!), what dimming curve? Unless they cost a fortune then a waste of time for theatre...OK for shows where subtlety is not required perhaps. OP did say "theatre"; I interpret that as "drama", not musical. Some need quite a few channels, colours etc, etc so need a fairly decent desk. Might need DMX splitter kit too. Cheap to run? Well, yes, possibly, but it would take a while to offset the capital cost, assuming purchase of course. We read too that Leds age quite quickly, with a fairly brisk loss of efficiency. Saw a profile (Coemar IIRC) at last year's Plasa, which consisted of an Led "light engine" (Dear oh dear, latest buzz word?) with three optional heads. Very nice, but £1800+??? Leds are splendid in some circumstances but as a direct replacement for proper theatrical lanterns? Not quite there yet. Green argument? Takes a fair bit of energy to build a Led lantern cf a tungsten Par 64, say. Reliability? A lot more to go wrong cf the typical tungsten Par 64. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timd Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 I've just got my hands on a pair of Pulsar Chromaflood 200's on hire for general wash use. I have to say I couldn't be more impressed with them. Really well built, incredibly bright and a really, really smooth dimming curve. I thought I was a step at the bottom, but as it turns out that was the step from DMX 000 to DMX 001. Even at these really low brightnesses I couldn't see any PWM strobing effects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 ...usings LED pars for dance and music events...What sort of 'dance' and 'music' events? Those two categories cover a HUGE range of events and some of them will not suit LEDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicktaylor Posted March 10, 2012 Share Posted March 10, 2012 A lot of interesting comments on this subject! Its fun to read the spectrum of people on this board. From those specing for a theatre using other peoples money to people like myself spending my own and hoping to recoup the outlay! Now the four colour pars are out there with white as one, par type units are useful as back/side or even from the front if you can get the balance right between the white and colour to give the particular "Lee" number. Certainly the latest tri ones I have, put out plenty of colour, maybe not as much as a CP62 of course but plenty to be going on with. I have no doubt within the year I will by some moving LEDs as the cooling systems are so much quieter. Maybe not state of the art and useable in a "big" theatre but plenty enough for a good effect for my customers and I will get my money back long before the LEDS fail , unlike the chance of an expensive bulb blowing mid show or on start up, with old movers, which I have four of!The phrase "horses for courses" springs to mind.By the way as far a I know the "china" argument is really drifting away as it seems big chunks of "name" manufacturing is moving in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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