Stage pickup mics

[gotty]

Last year, following advice here and elsewhere, I installed a sound system at a small rural middle school. It hasn't been used much, until this week, when it has two small Christmas plays.

 

We have three radio head-mics and that's fine. But a lot of the kids are really very quiet, and I'd like to have been able to help them on this. It's a bit too late now, but for future productions I'm looking at solutions for picking up stage voices to give them a bit of a boost.

 

Unfortunately, the apron is stepped down into the hall and these steps are always used. So boundary or apron mics are not practical.

 

I'd thought about hanging a couple of wired mics (we only have SM58s) from the flies, so that they're at about 2m above the stage but this is fraught with difficulties.

 

Another option is to sling a support wire from the stage left across to the other side, and sling the mics from there. That too isn't too easy because of the way the wing drapes work, but would be more flexible and easier to rig.

 

Or is it all too futile?

[Mr Steve]

If you search on here for "float mics" or "boundary mics" there are loads of topics on this sort of thing.

 

The golden rule is that if the cast are too quiet there is nothing to pick-up no matter how many microphones you have. You need to get the cast to project, which is much easier said than done with students in my experience.

 

Don't hang 58s as this won't get you anywhere. Buy or hire some Barlet TM-125s, or Crown PCC160s - a couple along the front of the stage should work fine. We use the 125s and get a good level before feedback which helps amplify the stage action. Hope that helps.

[gotty]

If you search on here for "float mics" or "boundary mics" there are loads of topics on this sort of thing.

 

Thanks, but as I mentioned in my posting, boundary mics just won't work. The apron steps down, and these are always used, so that boundary mics would be a serious trip hazard. Floats would be even worse.

 

You need to get the cast to project, which is much easier said than done with students in my experience.

 

That's the problem. These are 7-11 year olds and, even when projecting, they are very quiet.

 

Don't hang 58s as this won't get you anywhere.

 

Obviously, 58s aren't really the answer, but they're all we've got at the moment. They're vocal/instrumental mics, bought for that purpose.

 

Buy or hire some Barlet TM-125s, or Crown PCC160s - a couple along the front of the stage should work fine. We use the 125s and get a good level before feedback which helps amplify the stage action. Hope that helps.

 

If there was a conventional front of the stage, I'd have probably gone that route (Bartlet, as I've some experience of these) without mentioning here. Might have been a small problem cost-wise though.

 

But thanks for the thoughts.

[david.elsbury]

Obviously, 58s aren't really the answer, but they're all we've got at the moment. They're vocal/instrumental mics, bought for that purpose.

Vocal mics, yes, but designed to be used close up, they lack the gain required for a good result with distant micing.

 

Unfortunately there's only so many ways to fix a problem like this, and there's only so many things that people can suggest.

 

I get the impression that you don't want to hear anything along the lines of "what you have won't work", or "you really need to improve the level of the source [children]". If that's the case, then was it really worth asking the question in the first place? :)

 

David

[ramdram]

I have to say that the notion of 7-11 yr olds being "very quiet" is a new one on me, ** laughs out loud **...it's making them be quiet is the one I recognise. When collecting my son from school it was all you could do to hear the other mums over the applied mayhem...all kids have got voices like high pitched fog horns. If they haven't then they're ill, no question about it.

 

We read very similar questions to yours and BR gives the same response in the technical dept every time. The truth, to be blunt, is the kids are choosing not to sing up...and if you wind the gain up then you are risking distortion. You don't really have a choice but to find a way of making them sing up.

 

We have had exactly the same probs in the local panto...quiet as mice on stage for the rehearsals and between scenes it's a battle to keep them quiet or from roaming in packs to outdo each other in the mischief stakes.

 

Unless you can get them interested in the concert/play then you'd be better off flogging a dead horse.

[gotty]

If they haven't then they're ill, no question about it.

 

:-)

 

You don't really have a choice but to find a way of making them sing up.

 

"Sing"? These are plays :-) Well, plays with a very small element of singing (for which the head-worn mics are used for solos, and work a treat, and the rest is ensemble for which there is no level problem at all).

 

But very little is under my control. I'm a recently-retired sound professional (from radio/TV) being asked to help out. While I've done stage work before, it's been on conventional stages with teens and adults who are keen, and where there is time (for others) to work on voice projection.

 

I got involved with these two very small productions for the first time last week (far too late), and the performances are over the next couple of days. My main task is to make it work for the three singers in each of the productions, mixing them with the recorded backing music. When I first heard the rehearsals I was very aware that the singers were fine, but many of the (speaking-only) cast were barely audible (not just because of their weak voices but because of the acoustics of the stage).

 

I know that any floor-mounted mics are no good because of the layout and use of the stage, so boundaries (and floats) are out. SM58s are not at all suitable for area pickup but they're all I've got to play with and are (predictably) unusable, and which got me thinking about longer-term solutions.

 

Since finding novel "can-do" solutions to otherwise-insurmountable problems is what professionals do all the time, I posted my original question in case someone had such a novel solution.

 

Vocal mics, yes, but designed to be used close up, they lack the gain required for a good result with distant micing.

Hence my comments, particularly the original "fraught with difficulties".

 

I get the impression that you don't want to hear anything along the lines of "what you have won't work", or "you really need to improve the level of the source [children]". If that's the case, then was it really worth asking the question in the first place? :)

 

I think that's grossly unfair and as far from the reality as I can imagine. But if I appear to be rejecting an idea, it is not because I don't want to hear it, but because I tried to clearly indicate that I'd already considered it, but the option simply isn't there.

[timsabre]

After a recommendation elsewhere on Blue Room I've just been playing with these in a church situation:

 

http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/52260-microphone-overhead-base-npcd664-pulse.html

 

They are surprisingly good considering the price of £43+VAT each, and will operate in dangly mode. We have the unfortunate situation of all the mics being in front of the speakers (don't ask) and the gain before feedback was usefully high even without EQ.

 

If even that's too expensive, then personally I would do nothing for this year and think ahead to next. Hanging SM58's is a waste of effort and being so visibly big, people will all be saying "oooh and the microphones weren't working...."

[Bobbsy]

It sounds like we have similar backgrounds--and, due to a slight miscalculation, I have a seven year old son despite being retired. As such, I get roped into helping with school shows.

 

My solution tends to be using 4 AKG451s with extension tubes across the front of the stage--the tubes let me get the capsules up at "child head level" without much visual intrusion. I'd prefer to have a mic right in the centre but, like you, there are a set of steps there so I put one mic either side of these. Depending on the stage, I also sometimes hang a couple of 451s or 391s a bit behind the proc arch, using home made coat hanger adaptors to angle them upstage.

 

Then I sit down with a scrip and mix like crazy because there's nowhere near enough gain before feedback to simply open all the mics at once.

 

However, I have to say that the music/drama teacher at the school is a clever cookie. She DOES spend a lot of time working with the kids on projection and, though it doesn't always work, you can see...er, hear....the results. The other side is that she quickly worked out what I was doing and arranged her staging so pretty much everything important is spoken or sung directly in front of one of the mics. Putting all this together, it kind of works--at least I've had various comments from teachers and parents that since my son arrived at the school they can actually hear plays.

[laolu]

I work in a theater with college students and have the same problem. They are mostly too timid on stage, but can be very noisy when they are among themselves. Singing is a little better than speaking, but not much. What I do is, I hang two smaller shot guns from the ceiling and put too longer ones in front of the stage, more or less aimed at center. It helps a little but isn’t perfect. Only then, if someone is really quiet, I let them wear head or lapel mics and incorporate them very carefully into the mix. This kind of production is a nightmare situation, and I agree with someone who said in another threat: If they are not loud enough, they should not be up there anyway…. B-)

 

 

[gotty]

http://cpc.farnell.c...d664-pulse.html

 

They are surprisingly good considering the price of £43+VAT each, and will operate in dangly mode.

 

Thanks for that. I think I could persuade the PTA to spend a bit of money on these. I'll investigate.

 

My solution tends to be using 4 AKG451s with extension tubes across the front of the stage ... but, like you, there are a set of steps there so I put one mic either side

 

Unfortunately, the steps on this stage run the full width of the apron, right up to the walls beyond the prosc arch, so there really is absolutely nowhere on the front of the stage for mics.

 

451s would be nice to have, but I don't think the school's budget would stretch that far. But the Pulse mics mentioned by timsabre look viable alternatives, and I'll look at slinging these behind the prosc arch.

 

the music/drama teacher at the school is a clever cookie. She DOES spend a lot of time working with the kids on projection

 

The senior school certainly has those resources, but this is a tiny middle school with very limited time/resources.

 

they can actually hear plays.

 

I'd be happy with that :-)

 

Thanks for the positive thoughts.

 

They are mostly too timid on stage, but can be very noisy when they are among themselves.

 

It's funny that. Always the way, and always has been.

 

I hang two smaller shot guns from the ceiling and put too longer ones in front of the stage, more or less aimed at center. It helps a little but isn't perfect.

 

A little help is all I think I can provide, and two slung guns behind the prosc arch are probably going to be the only practical way.

 

If they are not loud enough, they should not be up there anyway

 

These productions are all about inclusivity. It's not an after-school/optional activity. It's part of their curriculum, and every child in years 5+6 or 7+8 is involved.

 

Only then, if someone is really quiet, I let them wear head or lapel mics and incorporate them very carefully into the mix.

 

I'm only giving personal mics to the three main singers. There's a fourth in one production, but we only have three personal mics so the balance is tricky. Fortunately the lad without the mic is a stronger singer, but I do have to be very careful with the mix. I'm sure someone today will think that his mic wasn't working.

 

Thanks for the thoughts.

[sleah]

Dunno if it helps... but those CPC dangly mics are fine to be hung from a false ceiling. They are so lightweight that you can pass the cable in to the ceiling and with minimal amount of anchorage are perfectly safe, without the potential risk of dropping like a weighty SM58 could :)

Even with a solid ceiling, it's still worth looking at attaching a screw-in eyelet like wot you can get from B&Q, then some way of getting the cables to the sides, either more eyelets, minitrunking or whatever.

[David Ripley]

The PZM (PCC 160) route can be used if you mount it onto a backboard - a piece of perspex say, which is then mounted onto a low mic stand or flown if you can. Place this as far downstage as possible - off the stage in your case and you should get fairly decent coverage.

 

HTH

 

David

[gotty]

The PZM (PCC 160) route can be used if you mount it onto a backboard - a piece of perspex say, which is then mounted onto a low mic stand or flown if you can. Place this as far downstage as possible - off the stage in your case and you should get fairly decent coverage.

 

Thanks, David - that's an idea I hadn't considered, although I know that a PZM will need a fairly large backboard for the physics to work.

 

Dunno if it helps... but those CPC dangly mics are fine to be hung from a false ceiling.

 

Thanks Simon. Useful to know how light they are, although they'd actually be flown from fly bars. Although your comment makes me wonder if I might consider slinging them to the front of the prosc arch.

 

I guess I'd need a two-wire sling to stop them rotating, as the "hanging spring" looks a little insubstantial.

[timsabre]

I guess I'd need a two-wire sling to stop them rotating, as the "hanging spring" looks a little insubstantial.

 

You don't, they have a special non-twist cable. You just hang them on their own cable. If they don't point in the right direction, a little twisting of the last 6" of cable sorts it out.

[andy_s]

As you have a proscenium arch, if it is not too high, you could try fixing pzms to the underside of the arch rather than to the stage. I understand you can also improve the gain of these mmics by mounting them in a three-sided box, (adding "walls" as well as a "floor"). I heard this story from another person with a background in TV, who described sitting two mics in this kind of box surround (one for each mic) on seats in the front row, I think to pick up a children's choir...

 

(sorry, can't remember if you said your budget would stretch to pzms or not. ignore the above if that's the case!