Monitor Mixes...

[maxjones2000]

Hi,

 

 

Me and a technician from the theatre where I volunteer were chatting the other day about the Yamaha M7 CL as I had been messing round on it that morning and had some questions about what some functions did and how they would be used.

 

One thing I asked about was the 'Sends on Faders' button on the M7 (right-hand-side of the touch screen), as I couldn't really think how it would be used. Turns out that the 'Sends on Faders' mode is normally used by the 'Monitor Engineer(?)' during larger live bands (a lot of the acts we have in tend to tour an M7 for monitors), because then they just select the send they want to edit, and then can simply change the amount of each channel etc. going to that send quickly and easily, rather than having to select each channel and change the amount going to the send in the normal mode.

 

However, it then got me wondering how the monitor 'desk' then links to the FOH desk so that the FOH engineer can mix it separately/independently for what comes 'out front'. I've seen it done many times, but because I tend to help more with setting up lighting and staging, I always seem to miss seeing how this is done! So, I asked the technician I was chatting to, and he admitted that he didn't have a clue either! So, in the interest of me being curious, here is my question:

 

How does the Monitor Desk connect to the FOH desk, so that the FOH desk can mix it completely independently from the monitor mix? The only possible way I can think of doing it would be to use the direct-out (pre-EQ) on each channel on the monitor desk and connect those to the the normal inputs on the FOH desk? I know this is supposedly how it's done on OB's (the event sound desk to the OB van), but it seems quite a complicated way of doing it just for this! Or is this just me being naive?!

 

So it would go:

Microphone (for example) --> monitor desk --> (to amps and fold-back channels) and also out the direct out --> inputs on Main FOH desk

 

Also, how do they ensure that the EQ (etc) set on the FOH desk is IDENTICAL to that of the monitor desk? I'm assuming they must need to be the same so that what the performer is hearing through their monitor sounds exactly the same as what's going 'out front' (with exception of the levels of each channel). They could use a post-EQ direct-out on the monitor desk, but this would then mean that the FOH engineer would not be able to change the EQ quickly or very well as required throughout the performance... http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif

 

Finally, really stupid question, but what is the proper name for a 'monitor desk'? Or is it simply called a monitor desk?

 

Cheers and sorry if I'm asking some really dim questions! Just I'm new to sound and would like to learn how to set things like this up for future reference!!

 

Thanks,

Max J

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

[Shez]

How does the Monitor Desk connect to the FOH desk, so that the FOH desk can mix it completely independently from the monitor mix?

Microphone splitters. The signal is split before it hits either of the desks. Some monitor desks also offer built in splitters.

 

Also, how do they ensure that the EQ (etc) set on the FOH desk is IDENTICAL to that of the monitor desk?

They don't. What the performers need to hear isn't necessarily the same as what the audience should hear. The mixes are all different and the EQ (both of individual instruments and of the mixes themselves) is likely to be different as well.

 

Finally, really stupid question, but what is the proper name for a 'monitor desk'? Or is it simply called a monitor desk?

A monitor desk. ;)

[Jivemaster]

Get the Yamaha book of sound reinforcement, it's ageing a bit but still very valid. http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0881889008.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

 

All the signals from a stage are usually split, one way for the monitor mixer, and one way for the FOH mixer. The splitter could be transformers or active. The monitor mixes will be very different from the FOH mix.

[maxjones2000]

Oh okay, thats brilliant thanks Shez! I was making it a bit too complicated then!!

 

Cheers!

Max J

http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif

 

Get the Yamaha book of sound reinforcement, it's ageing a bit but still very valid. http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0881889008

 

All the signals from a stage are usually split, one way for the monitor mixer, and one way for the FOH mixer. The splitter could be transformers or active. The monitor mixes will be very different from the FOH mix.

 

Thanks for the link to the Book. I might look into getting that - looks quite good!

 

Thanks http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif

 

 

[brainwave-generator]

The Yamaha book is good but getting old. Somebody should do a revision.

 

As for your question, there are 2 methods:

 

1) Analogue desks and older digital desks use a microphone splitter before the desk, so the signal goes to each one unaffected by the other. Even the gains can be set independently.

 

Microphone - Mic Split - Mons Console

......................................... - FOH Console

 

Some consoles designed for use in the monitor role have mic splits built into the console, so you plug into the monitor board, take a mic split from the back of it, and then to FOH.

 

2) Newer digital desks have digital splits. There will be a 'stage box' which contains the mic pre-amps and the analogue-digital / digita-analogue converters, and the output sockets for FOH / monitor amps. The stage box will then have some kind of digital lead (Digidesigns use Digi-Link, Digico use MADI, etc) running from the stage box to the respective consoles. Only one console can set the 'analogue gain', IE the actual gain on the mic pre-amp, and this is usually the monitor engineer since he'll want to prevent feedback; but the FOH engineer will have 'digital gain', so he can add or subtract gain from the signal the monitor engineer is setting to. As such, the signal flow is:

 

Microphone - Stage Box - Mons Console

............................................ - FOH Console

 

Remember, the benefits of the digital lead are not just this simple splitting system. For one, it significantly reduces the weight and size of the multicore running to FOH. In analogue days, you might have to run 48 mic lines, 12 stereo returns, and 16A single phase down the FOH multi. That weighs a lot, and is a chunky multicore too! With digital, it's one cable, no bigger than what you plug in your computer screen, and a 16A. And that does everything! With some digital consoles, there are further benefits to that cable. Not only does it carry the audio to / from the console (which, technically, it doesn't - the audio stays on the stage, the desks just play with data), they can do a myriad of other things. On Digicos for instance, the FOH engineer can remote control the monitor board, or visa versa. So if the monitor engineer urgently needs the toilet at a gig, the FOH engineer can quickly pilot the monitor board, and his own board, at the same time, until the Mons engineer gets back. For enhanced communications, the SD7 has a video camera and multi-function meter bridge that can turn into a video screen, so the FOH and Mons engineers can talk to each other over realtime video not just audio. You can also use multiple desks within Digico's MADI system, not just 2 - and select which console you want to control. This means, if you're in a venue where the FOH position is in a little unpractical place (often the case in theatre), you can put the main FOH board in the FOH position, then put a small 16-fader SD11 somewhere where the sound is practical, use it during soundcheck (whilst remote-controlling the FOH board), and then just pack it away once doors open and go back to the FOH board. That said, in theatre, I have seen a FOH engineer sat in the audience with an SD11 in a small rack, mixing the sound from the audience whilst they were in there, remote controlling the main FOH SD8 console right back in the FOH position which was horribly placed.

 

 

 

 

Hope this is a useful guide to the splitting process of different types of console!

[Bobbsy]

As others have said, the norm is a mic splitter or, with some specialist desks like the A&H GL "M" series, the monitor desk has a split output.

 

I personally find the "Aux send on a fader" option on most Yamaha digital desks incredibly useful, especially when doing monitors from the FOH mixer. I also use it for creating mixes for video relays, live recordings, etc.

 

On your question about getting the EQ "exactly the same" that tends to be what you don't do. The idea of monitoring is not to give the musicians exactly what the audience is hearing. Rather, you give them what they need to improve their performances. Often this means giving them more of "themselves" and just enough of the rest of the band to stay in time. The EQ on monitors is designed to sound right to the performers (and to increase gain before feedback) rather than emulate the FOH sound.

 

Finally, yeah, it's just called the monitor desk or console...or sometimes the whole system is referred to as "monitor world" in my experience--but that's more an in joke than anything official.

[Simon Lewis]

As Shez and Jivemaster have said, splitting the signal sources is the common way to provide a feed to two desks. They mention transformer and active splits, but there are a large number of systems that use a simple wired split (essentially a Y lead) for this purpose. It's simple, it's cheap and it (usually) works.

 

Of course, many systems are using digital stageboxes / multicores. These often give the option of connecting both monitor and FOH desks to the same stagebox. Although this can be really good, there is a potential issue with "which desk sets the preamp gain" as the preamp is in the stagebox and it affects both desks. Although there are some clever workarounds, some users eschew the digital splitter and use a simple passive splitter ahead of any digital stagebox systems.

 

Simon

[maxjones2000]

Thanks for the replies Bobbsy & Simon!

 

Just another small question, regarding me learning how to use the M7..

 

It has been suggested for me to download the M7 PC Software (Studio Manager IIRC), so I can get to grips with it and get used to how it works. However, I downloaded it, and it won't let me do anything without connecting to a console...obviously I don't have £18k to buy an M7(!), so is there any way to load it up as like an offline editor without connecting to a physical console? The person who suggested it said that you can do it 'offline' but I can't find a way!

 

Thanks & Sorry!

 

Max J :)

[Bobbsy]

Hmmm...my Studio Manager software just works even when not connected to a console. I'll have a poke around and see if I can work out what might be different. However, the software isn't an exact simulation of using the mixer live...things like the Aux sends on faders aren't there in the same way as live.

 

Edited to add...just realised you need Studio Manager and the M7CL editor to do anything...have you downloaded both files?

[maxjones2000]

Ahh I didnt realise there were two files! Ive only got Studio Manager...! Will try and download it tomorrow and report back. I just thought it would be good to learn how to use the software and be proficient with it, as our venue uses studio manager more than the M7 console when mixing!! Thanks very much Bobbsy :)

[Bobbsy]

Just a thought...you MAY need to also have the Yamaha MIDI driver or Network driver installed even if you don't play to connect to anything. I'd install Studio Manager and the M7CL editor first and, if you have any problems, grab the MIDI driver too since it's relatively small. (I can't check because I have the MIDI driver installed already on all my machines!)

[Shez]

There shouldn't be any need for the network / midi driver. I've got studio manager and the LS9 editor installed on win XP, win 7 and linux without needing it. Take heed of the installation instructions though - you need to install everything in the right order and always do the reboots when asked otherwise it can fail.

[maxjones2000]

Thanks both of you :) I'm downloading it now (29 mins remaining...)!

 

Just out of interest, what does the M7 editor actually do? Is it just so that Studio Manager senses a 'virtual' M7 is connected? :)

 

Thanks everyone- much appreciated!

 

Max J

[Shez]

Studio manager is just the host software. Each editor (for mixers, keyboards, sound modules etc) is a full blown editor for all the parameters of that piece of equipment. The editor IS the virtual M7.

[maxjones2000]

Oh right. Thanks for explaining that Shez http://www.blue-room.org.uk/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif