Funktion One vs d&b audiotechnik

[weblordwill]

Hi guys I am new to this forum, but I would like some help with making an important decision about a PA I have been asked to purchase. I am the technical assistant for a 340 seat theater and I have been given an £8000 budget to spend on a PA. Most of the time the PA will be used in the theater but about 5-7 times per year it will be used for live events of about 700ish. I have narrowed it down to two systems which are in the budget and I would like your help to tell me the pros and cons of each system for theater (Please have a look at the theater in the pictures provided) and live sound applications, you input is very much appreciated. Both of these systems are second hand from the same company, and will be checked over thoroughly before they are purchased.

 

System 1: Funktion one

 

2x Res 2A's (Active, to be mounted on the upper circle bars, nearest the stage, for left and right speakers)

 

1x AX 88 + Appropriate Funktion One amp (Center fill)

 

2x 218A Bass Bins (Active, 2x 18 Bass drivers)

System 2: d&b audiotechnik

4x E3 (Two on walls facing outwards from the stage and then two on the upper tier on a delay)

2x C690 (Center fill)

Appropriate bass bins (Any suggestions)

Appropriate d&b amps

Thanks very much in advance for you help, once again your input is much appriciated

Ben Laserum

 

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[TonyMitchell]

Assuming this is "real" and not "homework"...

 

I've no experience in sound design within theatre, therefore will leave that to others who'll no doubt be along soon, however would comment as follows;

 

The two systems you've listed bear few similarities, therefore seem a peculiar choice to compare for the same application. Is this two packages you've seen online or something? The Funktion Res 2 is a 50(h)x25(v) box, whereas the the d&b E3 and E690 are 90x60 and 90x50 respectively with rotatable horn.

 

You may or may not be aware, both of the d&b boxes you mention are now discontinued, the C690 quite a few years ago and the E3 early last year. The Funktion One products are all current range. Don't be put off by that, just be aware of it, as you can generally negotiate keener pricing on discontinued product, where for example rental houses are selling five year old E3s to replace with the current E6 box.

 

That little lot of d&b you've listed (4xE3 and 2xC690) - you should be thinking around the £4,000 ex vat mark, including 2xP1200 amplifiers

 

You go on to mention that the system will also be used, presumably outside of the theatre, for live events. Without knowing what you mean by "live events" - what size space, indoor/outdoor, what will be going through the PA - music, speech only, what levels you need to achieve - it is impossible to make any recommendations. However, unless the application is limited to speech and low level background music in a 'quiet' environment, then neither of the two systems won't come anywhere close to being up to the job for 700 people.

[timmeh2]

Hi

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one here who has used just about everything made by both. F1 and d&b are very different systems, you can't compare things like the Res2 to the E3 and the F218 to the E15.

 

I'm sure for 8k they'd come down and demo them both for you.

 

All the best

Timmeh

[RobertKendall]

it's quite hard to guess based on the pics but...

 

1 C7i Top with Yoke as a centre floor fill (main foh)

2 E3 - 1 either side of the C7i for the upper circle left and right

2 E3 - mounted further back for the rear balcony

2 C7i Sub - Sat inside the pros arch

2 E3 - one on each sub to allow for any L+R Fx

 

 

 

If it's financially viable id swap the L+R E3s for C6 or even E9s to help with the bands

Also run the above and C7Subs of Auxs for control

 

 

Amps

P1200 ch1- C7top ch2- 2xC7sub

EPAC 2x E3 Upper circle

EPAC 2x E3 Rear balcony

EPAC 1x E3 Left

EPAC 1x E3 Right

 

That should do the job?

[billy jim]

I'd debate that Funktion One, whilst a fantastic range and I personally love it, isn't exactly suited to theatre.

 

d&b definitely is suited to theatre with the right combination of boxes, but there are other manufacturers alongside d&b who would be worth considering, such as Martin Audio or L'acoustics...

 

Just my 2p.

[mackerr]

Hi guys I am new to this forum, but I would like some help with making an important decision about a PA I have been asked to purchase. I am the technical assistant for a 340 seat theater and I have been given an £8000 budget to spend on a PA. Most of the time the PA will be used in the theater but about 5-7 times per year it will be used for live events of about 700ish. I have narrowed it down to two systems which are in the budget and I would like your help to tell me the pros and cons of each system for theater (Please have a look at the theater in the pictures provided) and live sound applications, you input is very much appreciated. Both of these systems are second hand from the same company, and will be checked over thoroughly before they are purchased.

 

 

What is the functional specification you want this "PA" to fill? Does that 8K include the other half of a sound system? A bunch of speakers and amps do not a sound system make. Are you including microphones, mic stands, cable, racks, comm, playback? What capabilities does your console have? How much routing can you do from the console to SFX speakers located around the set? Maybe you need more small speakers for SFX, and not so much for a big PA.

 

If you are asking these questions on the Internet I would suggest you get an experienced professional to evaluate your needs and make recommendations.

 

Mac

[Bobbsy]

For those asking "why the rather mis-matched shortlist", a sentence in the OP answers this:

 

Both of these systems are second hand from the same company.

 

Of the two, the only set of gear suitable for theatre is the d&b Audiotechnik. The spelling of "funk" in the "Funktion 1" name gives an idea of the target market for this product. The d&b stuff could potentially be okay in the way you've described but any installation of this complexity needs a very detailed evaluation of coverage angles, hanging points, etc. etc. rather than just a general "it could work".

 

Bob

[brainwave-generator]

For those asking "why the rather mis-matched shortlist", a sentence in the OP answers this:

 

Both of these systems are second hand from the same company.

 

Of the two, the only set of gear suitable for theatre is the d&b Audiotechnik. The spelling of "funk" in the "Funktion 1" name gives an idea of the target market for this product. The d&b stuff could potentially be okay in the way you've described but any installation of this complexity needs a very detailed evaluation of coverage angles, hanging points, etc. etc. rather than just a general "it could work".

 

Bob

 

There is a difference between Target Market and Suitable Applications. The theory that Funktion One is only good for dance music is a complete myth with no truth in it whatsoever, made up by people who have no idea what they're talking about. Funktion One is a progression from the design of Turbosound Floodlight, which was a world leading system for many years, and not just for dance music. Oasis used a Flashlight & Floodlight system at Wembley.

 

It was of course, inevitable that somebody would come along and tell everyone how Funktion One is for dance music and nothing else. But it's completely untrue. It's POPULAR in the dance market. So's Nexo, so's Opus. Turbosound, Martin, L'Acoustics are popular in the rock market. Doesn't mean you can't use them for dance. It's all sales ###### from rival companies to misguide people into buying a system they don't need.

 

D&B E-series and F1 Res-2 are fundamentally different systems though, not "one for dance one for conferences" as one might suggest, but the cabinet design is completely different, with different purposes in mind.

 

I would personally actually go with the Funktion One, because of it's toughness and durability, and so whether you're doing bands, theatre or comedy, the system will cope happily and last for many years with no hassle.

 

I've nothing against D&B and toured with a J & Q series system (at the same time) and love them to bits, and the guys at D&B are great too. However, I feel that for this size room and the purpose you are looking for, the Funktion system is probably more suited. But do not for one minute believe the hype that Funktion One systems are just for dance and nothing else. It was the resident rumour about Nexo until Funktion came along to take the hit, and neither are true. I've seen Nexos at more rock shows than I've seen Flex Arrays.

 

However, my underlying advice with both systems would be - they are both high end rigs, pay somebody to come and do it for you. If you don't know what you're buying, I'm prepared to guess you don't know how to install it properly either, and you'll never get the full capability out of the system. Both Funktion One and d&b hugely benefit from being installed and tuned properly. Blue Box are probably the best for Funktion One, visit Heaven in Charing Cross for a listen of what a properly installed Funktion Res5 system sounds like - it sounds fantastic, usually considered the best sounding club in London. Whatever you buy, it's imperative that you have it installed by a professional, because if you don't, you'll spend £8000 on a system and it'll sound like a £4000 system because it's not being used properly. They both have proprietary amps and processors which will allow a competent technician to get a great sound and leave it set up that way, or give you a couple of program modes for different types of source material. But don't, whatever you do, just buy either system, hang it up, and go from there... it'll sound like crap whatever you buy.

[kerry davies]

Everyone is right in that the d&b is near the mark but I simply would not go there from here.

 

Trying to get a theatre sound system that can then be removed for use, presumably in another venue or outdoors, will result in neither application being satisfactorily fulfilled unless the system is designed from scratch to do so. Even if it were a really good deal, which on the surface it does not appear to be, the resulting failure to satisfy either requirement adequately makes the investment unsound.

 

Personally I would seek advice from an acoustic expert who could configure something specific and then go looking for that rather than accept what was available at the time. A little patience may go a long way in this case.

[James Remo]

I'd debate that Funktion One, whilst a fantastic range and I personally love it, isn't exactly suited to theatre.

 

 

Snip... the only set of gear suitable for theatre is the d&b Audiotechnik. The spelling of "funk" in the "Funktion 1" name gives an idea of the target market for this product....Snip

 

 

Funktion one's Res 3 system sounded fantastic at the national for the recent production of Frankenstein. Would either of you care to quantify your remarks? Surely they are all wooden boxes, with paper cones and magnets in them? Designed for accurate reproduction of source material? Or is it the purple paint job that makes them unsuitable for theatre?

 

That said, I don't think either system is most appropriate for the space, and you should heed the advice for a properly designed system

[kerry davies]

Nothing whatsoever wrong with F1 James, just that set of speakers just will not cover that venue, IMHO. I agree that this is a bit of a leap due to not having seen the venue "in the flesh" and relying on photographs but the d&b "appears" to be the better of two not very good alternatives.

 

Crux of the matter is that nobody on BR can give a fully reasoned opinion other than your own (and everyone elses) which is "get a man who can".

[Bobbsy]

 

There is a difference between Target Market and Suitable Applications. The theory that Funktion One is only good for dance music is a complete myth with no truth in it whatsoever, made up by people who have no idea what they're talking about. Funktion One is a progression from the design of Turbosound Floodlight, which was a world leading system for many years, and not just for dance music. Oasis used a Flashlight & Floodlight system at Wembley.

 

It was of course, inevitable that somebody would come along and tell everyone how Funktion One is for dance music and nothing else. But it's completely untrue. It's POPULAR in the dance market. So's Nexo, so's Opus. Turbosound, Martin, L'Acoustics are popular in the rock market. Doesn't mean you can't use them for dance. It's all sales ###### from rival companies to misguide people into buying a system they don't need.

 

<huge snip of many paragraphs of irrelevant rock show talk>

 

You start of saying Funktion 1 is suitable for theatre then spend your whole time talking about rock shows.

 

Yes, a small minority of theatre is rock-based but the vast majority needs a subtlety and accuracy that the Funktion 1s simply cannot deliver. They are about high levels and lots of bass, not subtlety and accuracy.

 

Then you go on about how things like Nexo, Opus, etc. are suitable for both dance and rock. Guess what? I wouldn't spec those for a typical theatre either.

 

Brainwave Generator, you seem to assume the whole world revolves around loud touring rock shows--because thats the only world you're involved in. Your background seems to be as a rigger for the rock world yet you pretend knowledge you simply don't have. You pretend to know everything and often give bad advice. This is one of those times.

 

The best advice is probably not to limit the purchase to this shortlist--and to do a lot more analysis of the needs of the THEATRE in question. The worst advice is to buy the Funktion 1s and lose the necessary vocal subtlety for thumping bass you don't want or need.

[James Remo]

Yes, a small minority of theatre is rock-based but the vast majority needs a subtlety and accuracy that the Funktion 1s simply cannot deliver. They are about high levels and lots of bass, not subtlety and accuracy.

Snip

The worst advice is to buy the Funktion 1s and lose the necessary vocal subtlety for thumping bass you don't want or need.

 

I beg to differ. As in the example I gave the production was not rock-based, with lots of subtle nuance, high dynamic range and fantastic vocal clarity. Any system is only as good as it's operator, with the greatest of respect I fear you have not heard it at it's best.

[Simon Lewis]

I've not had the opportunity to compare one against the other... however, Funktion's Tony Andrews is almost obsessed with sonic accuracy, and I suspect would be somewhat hurt if it was suggested that his products couldn't provide the resolution needed for critical reproduction and listening.

 

I cannot verify whether the F1s are suitable or not, but would agreee that the "only good for dance music" moniker is a little absurd. Perhaps the lack of a line array perpetuates this sentiment? not that Tony would be designing one this side of a snowy spell in hell...

 

However, the common factor in the OP's post is that both systems were about the same price second hand from the dealer. It's a bit like being offered two very different cars - the only common factor being they both have 4 wheels and are the same asking price. I would echo the sentiments shown above - this theatre needs the right speakers for the space, and not just the best of what might be available second user at a given point in time...

 

 

[mackerr]

For those asking "why the rather mis-matched shortlist", a sentence in the OP answers this:

 

Both of these systems are second hand from the same company.

 

Of the two, the only set of gear suitable for theatre is the d&b Audiotechnik. The spelling of "funk" in the "Funktion 1" name gives an idea of the target market for this product. The d&b stuff could potentially be okay in the way you've described but any installation of this complexity needs a very detailed evaluation of coverage angles, hanging points, etc. etc. rather than just a general "it could work".

 

Bob

 

The wrong gear at the right price is still the wrong gear.

 

The fact that these bunches of gear are available used does not make either one of them suited to the OP's needs. As Bobbsy said, an evaluation of what is required needs to be done, and suitable gear to fill those requirements found. Finding the gear and trying to rationalize the needs is backward.

 

Mac