Ashley R Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Hi BR someone just mentioned this to me, and it made me stop and think a bit. They said it was "illegal"(Eventually corrected this to be "against Common sense") to run 110/240v cabling along floors, even when gaffed down, with ample amount of gaff making contact with the floor (e.g. a double strip of Nashua 357 for a single cable) , and then hazard gaff over the top to make the cable easily identifiable. His reasoning was that say someone with high heels (can be replaced with metal walking stick, walking frame, metal chair leg, you get the picture) stepped on the cable, the layer of gaff would provide little protection, and the wearer would be electricuted, and then possibly sue the person who laid the cable. His solution was to use cable trays everywhere/ go over doors(but there are some times when this just cant be done). I have seen 240v cables gaffed to floors everywhere, and was interested to hear your thoughts on the matter. Thanks Ashley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossmck Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 His reasoning was that say someone with high heels (can be replaced with metal walking stick, walking frame, metal chair leg, you get the picture) stepped on the cable, the layer of gaff would provide little protection, and the wearer would be electricuted, and then possibly sue the person who laid the cable. His solution was to use cable trays everywhere/ go over doors(but there are some times when this just cant be done). I have seen 240v cables gaffed to floors everywhere, and was interested to hear your thoughts on the matter. It's common practice and I'd argue safe if appropriate cables are used. The gaffa is not meant to offer any form of mechanical cable protection, just to secure it from moving and preventing a possible trip hazard. You'd be hard pushed to get a metal walking stick or walking frame or chair leg to puncture a TRS cable(!) Stiletto heels have been known to cause fatal puncture wounds, but I have no real personal experience with them (honest guv) but personally don't believe they'll puncture a TRS cable (even if they did, are they not usually made of material that's non-conductive.. never seen metal heels) Obviously it's not an appropriate way to run a single core cable with no protection itself, but TRS should be absolutely fine (I've seen that stuff driven over, chair legs on top of it, flight cases on top of it etc and yet it's remained undamaged) And even if the cable is damaged by someone if RCDs are used this would generally protect the individual involved. All in all I'd say it's VERY unlikely anyone would ever come to harm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Complete and utter BULL. Venues the world over have been running power cables over floors with gaffer tape for many a year - I have never heard of an injury or fatality from people who have been using proper extension leads that have been inspected before use - the only shocks I have heard of was due to running damaged cables. For high traffic areas with large, thick cables (or large quantities of cables), it is BETTER to use a cable tray - but that is more to reduce the trip risk and protect the cables. ... I am not going to say what I am actually thinking, but basically whoever told you this is an idiot and needs to get their head checked. Many venues will insist that cables go over entryways etc. The justification however is due to risk assessment on the trip hazard, nothing to do with electrocution. A high heel is not going to go through a power cable - at least not without seriously trying to damage it. A stiletto will generally roll off. A standard heel has too large a surface area - unless they are an elephant, the cable will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wingwalker Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 A well presented post by the op I feel but other than that for the technician to claim it is "illegal" is pure pants. Good practice to gaff cable down around the edges and to and go up / over doorways to prevent rubbing and scraping from door movement plus being a trip hazard - and as it has been previously said, a cable protector in heavy traffic areas - but in my 26 years in the industry that's a first one on me! In my opinion, It makes me wonder if the litigation culture is so deep rooted everywhere people are too scared to do anything without fear of being sued. Viva la common sense.........followed by elf n safety :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 It's something that needs a sensible assessment... There could be a small risk arising from physical damage to the cable. The larger the cable and the presence of three phase supply might well mean that gaffering to the floor isn't the best approach in a public area. What I object to though is the sparky insisting on puttng those wretched cable protector strips over the cable, thus creating an obstacle that wheelchairs struggle to mount and everyone trips over. Ultimately, I would prefer to keep cables out of the way, and would not want to gaffer cables down where there is a trip hazard created or place cables anywhere near fire exits. If cables do have to live on the floor, I often use a 0.5m wide length of thin rubber mat over the cable and gaffer the edges of that down.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadhippy Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 someone just mentioned this to me, and it made me stop and think a bit. They said it was "illegal"(Eventually corrected this to be "against Common sense") to run 110/240v cabling along floors, even when gaffed down, that wouldnt be on a certain dodgy site by any chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerry davies Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Certainly not illegal but common sense tells one to route cables away from the punter, up and over rather than across doorways and to keep them away from foot traffic. However if the geezer is the boss then when he says it must not be done then it must not be done, his reasoning may be flawed but he is the boss. FWIW I have seen both trestles and Samsonite chairs with leg caps missing slice into cables, I have seen flightcases with busted wheels cut through cables and I have seen various electrical supplies with the standard 4 inch nail rather than fuse or RCD. (Churches especially!) "If it can happen, it will" is probably the biggest truism in events production, we deal with the public, so it is not about compensation culture or "elf'n'safety" it is common sense, as Wingwalker says. Unfortunately common sense is as common as rocking horse 5h1t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 The last fairground I went to had what I suspect were three phase cables across public thoroughfares left right and centre (gennies around the outside of the site, rides inside of the outer circle were all fed by radially laid cables). No protection whatsoever. Far be it for me to suggest that travelling fairs have lower standards of safety than the rest of us but I didn't notice anyone being electrocuted there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHYoung Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 There is a very big difference between a temporary and permanent instalation, a taped down cable is a flexible cable attached to a applience, no different from the one on the hoover or a table lamp, its only gaffad down to avoid the tripping hazard, the tape offering no mechanical protection as this is designed into the double insulated cable. If the cable is safe to run without gaffa, gaffa makes it no less safe. Common sense dictates that you dont run cables across high traffic areas or put things on top of them. The next person who claims that something like this is illegal should be driven to the police station and forced to report it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Utter rubbish. We run several cables from the stage to the back of the venue. All covered with cable trays in the middle of the venue, however at the front of the house and near the back things are gaffed. Cables have also been gaffed on stage as well when needed. No problem at all! Send your friend/student here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roderick Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Complete and utter BULL.<snip>... I am not going to say what I am actually thinking, but basically whoever told you this is an idiot and needs to get their head checked. Well, I beg to differ.As both you and Ashley are in Australia, let me quote from AS3002 - Electrical installations—Shows and carnivals4.2.2 Installation.4.2.2.1 General. Cables shall not be laid on theground in areas accessible to the public. In all othersituations cables may be laid on the ground for shortdistances provided that suitable means of protectionare provided.Gaffa tape, for the reasons pointed out by several people, is not a suitable protection.So whoever made the comment to Ashley is quite correct, it is illegal in Australia. And quite frankly, I am getting rather tired of people quoting "we have done this for years and it is fine". It is that attitude that will get you in a lot of strife when things go 'unplanned'.And they will. I am with Kerry in that respect and have seen, and heard, cables being damaged by a wide range of objects you may not even have thought of.It is not so much people being electrocuted, much more about internal damage to cables that could lead to overheating and a raft of other problems.RCD's sure, but how many dimmers have a RCD build in? I'd say that the bulk of cables run for an event or production are connected to dimmers. Do the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 AS3002-1985's scope is as follows: This standard sets out requirements for electrical installations within, and for the supply to, concessions, tents, living quarters and other temporary structures used for entertainment or display and purposes associated therewith in shows, carnivals and similar temporary installations. So I cannot see how the running of Gaff over cables in your standard pub, club, corporate venue etc would be covered by this standard. From what I have seen of Ashley's posts, he is in the small-scale lighting circuit. He may do the odd outdoor job, no idea, but you will have a hard time getting gaff to stick outside anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashley R Posted October 12, 2011 Author Share Posted October 12, 2011 How far would these regs fall? Would these regs apply to say wedding djs, or to people using a performance area but not for a show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac.calder Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 How far would these regs fall? Would these regs apply to say wedding djs, or to people using a performance area but not for a show. The interpretation I get from the description is show being used in the term of "Royal Melbourne Show", "Dandenong Show" etc along side your arena tours where you are building a large temporary structure. I do not believe it is intended for your 6 pcs of fold and roll stage for a wedding cover band inside a corporate venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cooks44 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 G'day Ash, We'll always try and use common sense - if it's onstage/behind the scenes, it's gaffed and pointed out to those who'll commonly encounter it (and safety gaffed for the uncommon ones). Once it's in the public area, either overhead, right around the edges or at worst in safety trays. It wasn't that long ago I got a few stalls at a local fete temporarily halted, drove to the shops on my lunch break and found this pretty red and yellow cable running right through the middle of the carpark. Someone had used about 8 standard extension leads to get power to a few stalls from a shop about 150M away. They were just plugged together in between or underneath peoples cars on rocky asphalt, with at least a thousand cars driving over it before mine did... Strangely the insulation wasn't quite holding up to the torture :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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