Scaffolding as a basic stage structure

[alanhj]

In June 2012 Carnon Downs Drama Group which is near Truro in Cornwall will be performing "The Tempest" at an outdoor venue and as such I contacted a local scaffolding firm asking for a quote to provide a scaffold based stage, the dimensions being 38ft x 18ft x 3ft6ins in height. The top would be covered with standard scaffold planking secured to the frame. I couldn't believe my ears when the Manager for the firm said that they couldn't do this job because they couldn't get insurance! I said "But you are a scaffolding firm and you are only going to a height of 3ft 6ins" "Yes" he replied "But we can't get insurance to provide you with a stage".

Has anyone else, amateur or proffessional had similar problems? If you have, how did you overcome the problem?

[peza2010]

In June 2012 Carnon Downs Drama Group which is near Truro in Cornwall will be performing "The Tempest" at an outdoor venue and as such I contacted a local scaffolding firm asking for a quote to provide a scaffold based stage, the dimensions being 38ft x 18ft x 3ft6ins in height. The top would be covered with standard scaffold planking secured to the frame. I couldn't believe my ears when the Manager for the firm said that they couldn't do this job because they couldn't get insurance! I said "But you are a scaffolding firm and you are only going to a height of 3ft 6ins" "Yes" he replied "But we can't get insurance to provide you with a stage".

Has anyone else, amateur or proffessional had similar problems? If you have, how did you overcome the problem?

 

of course they wont get insured easily. a SCAFFOLDING company provide scaffold - for a couple of people to walk on whilst working - not to use as a stage.

 

you overcome the problem by using something correct for the job.

 

if you want a stage, use a stage company. if you want scaffold, then use a scaffold company.

 

despite looking ugly, covered in concrete and other crap, scaffolding planks have usually had seven bells knocked out of them, and so are not level with each other.

 

find a local company that can do the job properly, that have the knowledge to provide you with something safe and made for the job, as well as having the insurance to do it.

 

this may seem like a harsh post, but the reality is scaffolding wont do the job you want properly, and potentially safely.

[themadhippy]

Try a different scaff company,or hire 25 slabs of steel deck and 100 3ft6 legs

[brainwave-generator]

In June 2012 Carnon Downs Drama Group which is near Truro in Cornwall will be performing "The Tempest" at an outdoor venue and as such I contacted a local scaffolding firm asking for a quote to provide a scaffold based stage, the dimensions being 38ft x 18ft x 3ft6ins in height. The top would be covered with standard scaffold planking secured to the frame. I couldn't believe my ears when the Manager for the firm said that they couldn't do this job because they couldn't get insurance! I said "But you are a scaffolding firm and you are only going to a height of 3ft 6ins" "Yes" he replied "But we can't get insurance to provide you with a stage".

Has anyone else, amateur or proffessional had similar problems? If you have, how did you overcome the problem?

 

of course they wont get insured easily. a SCAFFOLDING company provide scaffold - for a couple of people to walk on whilst working - not to use as a stage.

 

you overcome the problem by using something correct for the job.

 

if you want a stage, use a stage company. if you want scaffold, then use a scaffold company.

 

despite looking ugly, covered in concrete and other crap, scaffolding planks have usually had seven bells knocked out of them, and so are not level with each other.

 

find a local company that can do the job properly, that have the knowledge to provide you with something safe and made for the job, as well as having the insurance to do it.

 

this may seem like a harsh post, but the reality is scaffolding wont do the job you want properly, and potentially safely.

 

basically that.

 

the type of scaffold used in stages is SYSTEM SCAFFOLD, IE Layher / Cuplok, and is assembled in a manner that has been calculated for use as a stage.

 

scaffold companies do not do these calculations and as such will not perform this role if they are worth their salt.

 

There are plenty of staging companies around the UK, you are spoilt for choice, why use a scaff company? If you are doing an outdoor production, your production manager should be choosing a specialist outdoor stage provider or they are dicing with a lot of potential trouble.

[martinnoble]

I too would recommend using a proper staging company for the stage. A scaff company, even if they could get it insured, would never be able to give you a surface that would be nice or particularly safe to work on as the boards are likely to be uneven.

 

When I've done outdoor shows (not for a couple of years now) we have generally had the stage built by a staging company, then any structure behind, eg for flats etc, built by a scaff company.

[iains]

I've just finished the Edinburgh Fringe and we use a scaffolding company to construct an outdoor area comprising a flat area approximately 30m x 20m at a height of 1m, the site has two levels and the platform extends over a lower ground level of nearly a 4m drop. The structure has ramped access to the lower ground level and the main floor has a tent including a fairly large bar. Our scaffolding company seems to have no problem with insurance and I would say the number of people on the structure would exceed any performers on a stage structure of the size described

 

iains

[Seano]

of course they wont get insured easily

Splitting hairs here perhaps, but actually they almost certainly could get ensured easily - what they couldn't do is get insured cheaply.

 

For what profit they might stand to make it almost certainly wouldn't be worth their while for a one-off job - especially a job outside of their routine experience that they're not set up to handle efficiently.

 

I concur with the above, by the way - while just about acceptable for a spot platform or other 'technical' area, traditional scaffold boards make a poor stage surface.

 

if you want a stage, use a stage company. if you want scaffold, then use a scaffold company.

Unusual for a single company to do both staging and general (construction industry etc.) scaff, but not necessarily mutually exclusive.

[alanhj]

Thanks for all your replies. I have since found a scaffolding firm who are prepared to build the "staging". Scaff boards can be uneven and if there are bits of concrete on them, a lump hammer solves that problem. Once the scaff boards are down we will be covering them with OSB boarding and slapping waterproof paint on that. The director also wants sand laid over most of the acting area, well it is supposed to be an island, so that seems to have resolved the problems of the scaff boards.

Proper staging? Wonderful stuff and can't argue with that. But, you guys who recommended that I hire it are either Pro's or belong to an amatuer group with a large bank balance. I don't. The group I belong to is very good. Two years ago we won Noda South West Region Regional Award for Excellence for our production of War Of The Worlds". We just don't have loads of cash.

So despite the protestations from some you, and I was really only asking if any of you had had insurance problems, we will crack on with scaffolding. I will report back next year after the Show and let you know what problems, if any we had.

Thanks again.

[themadhippy]

just out of curiosity how much is the scaff structure costing? steel deck aint that expensive to hire (any were between £8 and £15 a slab) a basic stage the size you want will give you change out of £400 if you transport and erect the stuff yourself.

[timsabre]

just out of curiosity how much is the scaff structure costing? steel deck aint that expensive to hire (any were between £8 and £15 a slab) a basic stage the size you want will give you change out of £400 if you transport and erect the stuff yourself.

Maybe, Steeldeck/litedeck is great on a flat site - but if the site is bumpy or sloping a custom scaff structure will cope much better.

[peterdevon]

My mate has a scaffold firm and he is often asked for stages ramps & bridges etc, the problem is there are all design jobs so an engineer has to do a drawing. This then makes the job very expensive so he just doesn't bother.

[brainwave-generator]

Thanks for all your replies. I have since found a scaffolding firm who are prepared to build the "staging". Scaff boards can be uneven and if there are bits of concrete on them, a lump hammer solves that problem. Once the scaff boards are down we will be covering them with OSB boarding and slapping waterproof paint on that. The director also wants sand laid over most of the acting area, well it is supposed to be an island, so that seems to have resolved the problems of the scaff boards.

Proper staging? Wonderful stuff and can't argue with that. But, you guys who recommended that I hire it are either Pro's or belong to an amatuer group with a large bank balance. I don't. The group I belong to is very good. Two years ago we won Noda South West Region Regional Award for Excellence for our production of War Of The Worlds". We just don't have loads of cash.

 

I find your attitude very wrong. If you can't afford to do something SAFELY, don't do it. You have a legal responsibility to be safe. So by continuing and doing something unsafely... it doesn't matter if it's for budget reasons or any other, it's still ILLEGAL. And that is in extension to your moral obligations to keep your fee paying ticket buyers, IE the people who pay your costs, safe.

 

When building any structure, a designer needs to be consulted to ensure that the structure built is suitable for the application of the structure. Scaffolding firms are able to accurately design scaffolding for application within their normal remit - IE putting it up the side of a house and having 1 or 2 tradesmen walk around (those being dynamic loads) on it, as well as often having high static loads from their equipment and materials. A stage designer is able to design things within their normal remit -IE stages, where they will have a lot of people walking / running around on it (those being dynamic loads) and potentially high static loads too (IE set). Furthermore, the LAW requires that floors for different applications are rated to different levels, with them needing to be able to bear a set number of kilonewtons (KN) per Square Meter. The floor in your house is required to bear a lot less KN per Sq M. than the floor in, even, a shop or a hotel; so you can see why it is common sense that scaffolding on a building may well need to (legally) bear a different load than that of a stage.

 

If an accident occurred on your stage, particularly one that occurred as a result of a structural failure, one of the first things that the inspectors would want to see would be your structural calculations from a COMPETENT PERSON, factoring in the requirements which you (as a production manager) have supplied to the Stage Designer so that he can design you a suitable structure. I'm betting that you haven't done this? Do you like prison food? And even if prison isn't the outcome, the cost of a collapsing stage and the follow-up legal and insurance scenarios will be far greater than the cost of building it properly in the first place, and your 'we don't have any money' scenario will get far worse.

 

So, I repeat my original point: IF YOU CAN'T DO IT SAFELY, DON'T DO IT. Well, at least - If you can't minimise the risks to an acceptable level, don't do it. But either way, MONEY IS NOT AN EXCUSE TO BE UNSAFE.

Seriously you need to consult a professional stage designer, or at the very least, use a recognised system of modular staging and have it erected by a competent person / team. (And recognise this in your risk assessment). Just because a scaffold company will do it, it doesn't mean they will do it safely, and it doesn't mean that, if it goes wrong, you can simply offload all blame onto them and put your legs up whilst they get prosecuted.

 

So despite the protestations from some you, and I was really only asking if any of you had had insurance problems, we will crack on with scaffolding. I will report back next year after the Show and let you know what problems, if any we had.

Thanks again.

 

Fact is, you wanted to do something unsafe, and some industry professionals said "don't do it". Is that so wrong? Nobody on this site minds educating people who don't know any better. If they didn't like doing that, they wouldn't be here at all. I don't mind telling you what you need to know so that you can do it safely, but I get pretty huffed at an attitude of "Several people of superior knowledge and experience have told me not to do it, but I'm going to do it anyway because I can't afford better... and I'll let you know what happens". That's totally unacceptable.

 

 

 

just out of curiosity how much is the scaff structure costing? steel deck aint that expensive to hire (any were between £8 and £15 a slab) a basic stage the size you want will give you change out of £400 if you transport and erect the stuff yourself.

Maybe, Steeldeck/litedeck is great on a flat site - but if the site is bumpy or sloping a custom scaff structure will cope much better.

 

Not so Tim.

 

Steeldeck and Litedeck both use scaffold support so they are no worse on uneven ground or a slope than a custom scaffold structure. You simply need to use adjustable legs - of the same type that you would use when erecting scaffold on uneven ground. If building above 4' in height, you also need to use bracing, as you would in a scaff structure. So in essence, a steeldeck supporting structure is simply a scaffold structure anyway, it just uses it's own proprietary decking system which has been designed taking all legal loading requirements into consideration, as well as having a surface that is designed for performance use, making it more suitable than simply covering a scaff structure in wood and calling it a stage.

 

That is why, as I said above, you still need to get a competent person to design and install a steeldeck assembly as you would a scaffold assembly, because at the end of the day you are still applying a scaffold STRUCTURE, in steeldeck the only thing you are changing is that you are topping it with a purpose designed decking system. The support system still needs as much design care on an individual basis as any other scaffold stage or structure.

[TomHoward]

Maybe, Steeldeck/litedeck is great on a flat site - but if the site is bumpy or sloping a custom scaff structure will cope much better.

It's got to be worth saying that this depends on the company, as any screwjack / custom length leg that would be needed for the scaffolding company could also be used with steeldeck.

[Ynot]

I have to profess to being somewhat bemused

Once the scaff boards are down we will be covering them with OSB boarding and slapping waterproof paint on that.

Do you already own these boards? Or will this be an additional purchase (with sufficient paint to coat them)?

The director also wants sand laid over most of the acting area, well it is supposed to be an island,

How MUCH sand? Because don't underestimate the weight that even an inch is going to put on the structure (regardless of what the stage is built from). And how are you retaining the sand from the edges of the stage?

 

Incidentally, just done a quick calculation of decking hire from one of our usual suppliers - Impact in Milton Keynes using their online pricelist.

 

Litedeck -

16 off 8 x 4' at £15 each

4 off 8 x 2' at £12 each

3 off 6 x 2' at £12 each.

 

Total of £324 plus VAT at list price - you may well get a deal on that quantity.

This includes legs up to 4 feet high.

 

Depending on whether you're building on hard standing or a grassy field will determine whether you need foot plates or not, but that will be the case either way.

 

Obviously delivery/pickup from MK will add a chunk to that price, but there's surely a more local supplier to you, so may well be worth the rethink, no?

Oh - and experience with scaffolding firms in the past has taught me that there is seldom anything close to a standard length - so when looking to get multiple sections of 3' 6" for your uprights be prepared for them to be anywhere between 3' and 4'!

 

To me, the use of scaffold for staging is a real no-brainer and also likely to be far more time consuming....

[Pete McCrea]

Another vote here for using proper actual stage.

 

I really would suggest getting a quote from a supplier or two before you right the idea off, because I'd have thought that getting 20 decks locally, with base jacks is going to be much easier than a custom scaffold build. Two blokes could have that build in an hour or two, where as I'd have thought that a scaff structure would take considerably longer. Plus the boards are topped and ready for paint, but it'd probably be easier to roll some black DPC over the deck and put the sand direct on to that. Using scaff boards on a scaff frame could give a noisy stage which is never helpful.

 

Yes a good few of us are pro's, and while that does mean that we usually have money to do the job, it also means we know which is the safest, most efficient and most economical way to approach the situation. If using Scaff for small stages like this was cost efficient then we'd all be doing it. Where you do see scaff (system such as Layher or Cuplok) is underneath larger stage structures as supplied by the likes of Serious Structures. This is due to the modularity of it and the proven design capabilities.