Do I still need my fire curtain?

[techy tim]

Hi all I've used the blue room alot over the years to find out bits of info about the tech world but this is my first time posting so here goes!

 

We recently had an insurance inspection at my venue and the fire curtain was found to be faulty so I'm looking for some advice, as to have it fixed is going to cost most of this years tech budget!:blink:

 

Now I know the old fire regs used to say if you had more than 400 seats you need a curtain (we have 426) but that changed with the 2005 regs and now it comes down to fire risk assessments.

 

What I need to know is there any information out there to help me show our heath & safty chap that we no longer need the curatin.

 

any help or advice you can give would be very much appreciated :)

[Ynot]

I would suapect that the answer will be down to your licensing authority (usually local council).

[andy_s]

Technical Standards for Places of Entertainment 2009 (AK the yelllow book) may give you some guidance. Quite expensive, but maybe a neighbouring theatre has a copy you could borrow.

 

I would think you would need to analyse what the function of the safety curtain was in the event of a fire, and make a persuasive case to prove that this function is no longer required and that a fire emergency can be effectively dealt with without one.

 

I'd also inagine that it might require the involvement of the local authority Planning Department, as it would mean a major variation to the way the building was designed to function. Might be more complex than simply talking to the licensing authority. They might suggest that without the safety curtain, other measures are necessary, such as a sprinkler system, (if you don't already have one) and so on...

 

E2A I see you work for the council already... not sure if this is a head-start or a stumbling block! :D

[paulears]

When the license changed on our 1200 seater venue to the new system, all reference to our safety curtain vanished. However, we still have it serviced - and it's simply because if one was required when the building was designed, then despite the changes in legislation and licensing, if you had a fire, you would have made the decision to take an item of potential safety equipment out of service for budgetary reasons. The court would be presented with the fact that you had a system that would have prevented the injuries or death, and chose freely to not use it. The license requirements still leave this decision to you, they just would accept your decision to not use it - but they'd almost certain wriggle out of it by stating that it was a venue, not local authority decision - and they are merely the licensing authority.

 

I'd suggest you get it fixed, and try some people who may be able to do it cheaper. My venue is pretty cash strapped, and the form that looks after us is very reasonable, price wise. I could pass the name on if you want?

[kerry davies]

Paul is right in that modification of building design might (would?) be viewed as a reduction of fire safety measures. The same argument in reverse applies however for changes, alterations and additions to the premises and the fire safety measures having made the curtain redundant. The case of a sprinkler installation is a simple, one-hit example but new fire exits, escape routes, fire-fighting equipment, replacement of flammable building materials etc, since the fire curtain was installed, could allow removal.

 

Again, talk to the Licensing Officer at your LA and seek advice from the relevant Fire Protection Officer at the fire service and have the case for removal as organised and sensible as possible before you do so. Basically the curtain was installed for a reason and a good reason is necessary for its' removal.

NOTE: It being a PITA is not a good reason!

[Brian]

...and a modification as major as that might result in you having to re-apply for your premises licence which might result in you losing any grandfather rights you were given when they were first introduced. That might in turn mean additional expenditure in bringing the building up to current standards.

[Ellis]

Tim,

 

one thing to bear in mind is the difference in fire retardancy requirements between an 'open' and a closed 'stage'. You will be far more restricted as to what you can use if you remove the safety curtain from service.

 

For example,

 

Open stage: All materials Class I fire retardant.

Closed stage (i.e. safety curtain): Class II fire retardant acceptable.

 

The additional costs of materials and the additional administration overhead of ensuring that all scenery coming in is indeed Class I may make it more economical to have your Iron repaired.

[paulears]

Ellis - I didn't know that. Would I have that in any document I probably have, filed away - because I can't say I've ever seen that particular statement? Could you point me, please?

[Ellis]

Ellis - I didn't know that. Would I have that in any document I probably have, filed away - because I can't say I've ever seen that particular statement? Could you point me, please?

 

I don't have my yellow book to hand, but I think it is in there, bur could be the green book - something I had to consider when working in different venues in the dim, distant past..

[techy tim]

Thanks everyone

 

I've now armed myself with a new copy of the yellow book which has a whole chapter on Safety Curtains, and Ellis is right about the open and closed stages looking at section E2.

 

 

 

So I’m now getting the curtain repaired and just haggling with buildings maintenance about who will pay for it (the joy of working for a council!)

 

 

 

Thanks to Paulears for the PM, and everyone’s advice, it’s been really helpful.

 

 

 

Regards TIm

 

 

[paulears]

I was told the trick to get Council departments to fund this kind of thing is to email the person who would carry the can and ask for confirmation that a process is safe. Phrase it in a keen way that leads them to believe you're very happy with the planned action, but are just being thorough. The person in charge will have to reply, but will be very wary of stating in an email that a course of action is safe and approved just in case it goes wrong. The one sent to me a while back was something like "We're blocking up the fire exit on Edinburgh St tomorrow as arranged - do we need to put cones out on the pavement outside? We're not expecting to leave any debris there, but it could be a good idea - however we'll have to go to the depot to collect some as there aren't any in the store."

 

Since I read this, I've used it quite a few times and is something handy to just file away. I do remember once it coming in very handy - not a safety issue, but an expense one, when I did something that generated a large external cost, and the powers that be descended on me for unplanned spending without approval, and I was able to forward my line-manager's email that showed he knew all about it.

[delicolor]

technician Tim, a bit late to the party, but I recall Newcastle University Theatre which opened in the 1970s originally had 449 seats as one more would have pushed it down the fire curtain route (& it was a vestigial proscenium open to the auditorium at promenade level).

 

Regarding Irons in the 21st Century, I recently saw an am-dram Chess in Halifax where they have a 2 part Iron. That particular company like a big forestage as the Victoria stage is very shallow and cramped. For the show, they had hired the LiteStructures giant chess board and at the interval the iron was dropped in but the brake applied so that it stopped 3' short of the deck and was well clear of the set. Of course, there were large gaps either side and the crew's shoes & legs were clearly visible!

 

Now provided that the venue had automatic vents then it would probably still fulfill its purpose as a safety curtain (the Vic doesn't have a lantern as such, it has something resembling a seaside bus shelter). However, if it has fusible link openings, a lot of smoke could billow under and out before they opened. (I have to say that I wasn't too worried, most of the set was steeldeck & trussing).

 

Conversely, on the recent visit to the Leeds City Varieties (which has a roller Iron) they have fitted a new grid & electric flying but there doesn't seem to be any form of ventilator. They have also dispensed with one of the fire exits at the stage end (to accommodate the new get-in lift) & no-one appears to be bothered about that.

[Just Some Bloke]

I know the old fire regs used to say if you had more than 400 seats you need a curtain

 

... though the Olivier at the National Theatre seats 1150 and has no safety curtain (indeed it was designed in such a way that a safety curtain would have been well nigh impossible) so the regs weren't always strictly enforced!

[dbuckley]

I don't get the fire people.

 

We have a clubhouse come theatre, which was originally rated for 50 people. That's a bit tight, as that includes FOH staff and on stage actors and crew, so we asked if we could upgrade it a bit. We have 60 nice seats that fit the auditorium, plus the stage. We were hoping for perhaps 80.

 

Well, the man comes around, looks around, and promptly OKs us for 230 people, if we do a couple of things.

 

To get 230 people into this venue we would have to stack them horizontally in piles several deep.

 

Madness.

[kerry davies]

You are in the hands of an idiot, David, he has forgotten to apply the basic punter per square metre parameter and presumably gone;

"Fire exit widths - check!

Alarms - check!

Stewarding - check!

Fire Fighting Equipment - check! OK, that'll do for 230, off you go."

 

One venue I know had a stairway with a recessed handrail and the fire officer reduced the capacity saying they had to widen the staircase. £800,000 spent on structural alterations later and the stairway which now had two surface mounted handrails which actually reduced the width was cleared for the original capacity. Of course it was a local authority venue, what else?