smoke machines and smoke detectors

[Air1993]

hi im new to blue rooms im wondering if you can get caps for smoke detectors?

[Ynot]

I know there will be some out there who'll disagree, but in my book if you HAVE smoke detectors then they should NOT be tampered with in ANY way.

Search the Blue Room for this, as it's a common topic, but in short, unless there is an acceptable method of properly isolating detector zones in any building you should leave well alone. Blocking off smoke detectors leaves you open to all sorts of problems including, potentially, prosecution.

 

 

[Air1993]

I know a theatre that uses smoke detectors but use caps when they uses smoke

[Ynot]

I know a theatre that uses smoke detectors but use caps when they uses smoke

Then there is a good chance that they are doing so illegally.

[kerry davies]

Care to expand on that Harry? You may in fact cover smoke detectors during "hot" work or certain working situations which might cause a "false" alarm BUT (big but) you must then create a new risk assessment for that situation which probably would include extra staff in case a now undetectable fire does break out.

 

Do tell us that this is not in a school and that the local fire service has advised on the procedure. Ynot is correct that in most cases it is illegal but more worryingly for most managements it will negate any insurance policy I ever heard of.

 

Edit to add for the newbie, I worked in a college where the drama HoD would not listen and stored paint, turps and timber under a wooden stage. He refused to listen to me until the policy on the entire college was suspended and the principal was told to lock the doors until the situation was rectified.

[timmeh2]

Care to expand on that Harry? You may in fact cover smoke detectors during "hot" work or certain working situations which might cause a "false" alarm BUT (big but) you must then create a new risk assessment for that situation which probably would include extra staff in case a now undetectable fire does break out.

 

Hi

 

Most places I worked didn't even do that. In fact hot work was used as a tool for testing said fire system.

 

Going back to the OP, have you actually checked that your smoke machine will set off the sensors? Some types are fairly immune to haze and fog.

 

All the best

Timmeh

[Shez]

Most places I worked didn't even do that. In fact hot work was used as a tool for testing said fire system.

When a false alarm entails a couple of thousand people evacuating, an automatic attendance by the fire service and the resultant charge made by them for said unnecessary call out, setting off the alarm when it isn't absolutely necessary is generally something to be avoided...

[Ynot]

Most places I worked didn't even do that. In fact hot work was used as a tool for testing said fire system.

Hmmm...

And what sort of places have you worked, then?

Because that's a rather lacklustre way of 'testing' I must say.

[Air1993]

Care to expand on that Harry? You may in fact cover smoke detectors during "hot" work or certain working situations which might cause a "false" alarm BUT (big but) you must then create a new risk assessment for that situation which probably would include extra staff in case a now undetectable fire does break out.

 

Hi

 

Most places I worked didn't even do that. In fact hot work was used as a tool for testing said fire system.

 

Going back to the OP, have you actually checked that your smoke machine will set off the sensors? Some types are fairly immune to haze and fog.

 

All the best

Timmeh

 

 

the smoke machines do set them as we stage a test with them but severl theatres iv been to have these caps

[rossmck]

I know a theatre that uses smoke detectors but use caps when they uses smoke

Then there is a good chance that they are doing so illegally.

 

Conversely I know of two (different) Local Authority venues where this is the official practice, in their own Risk Assessments, and recognised by the local fire officer. Granted there's a lot of procedures and precautions taken around it but they do use caps, and do so legally and within their license.

 

This is *not* the case in most venues, and it's not as simple as covering them - but there are situations in which it is done and accepted.

[Ynot]

Well, regardless of any agreements to the contrary, my personal opinion on capping smoke sensors is based on the fact that it's FAR too easy to forget to remove them. It's also far too easy for someone to see them being used in whatever procedural fashion in one instance, and therefore assume that it would be OK for them to do the same at a future juncture - without having put into place any assessed measures....

 

 

 

 

[timmeh2]

Most places I worked didn't even do that. In fact hot work was used as a tool for testing said fire system.

Hmmm...

And what sort of places have you worked, then?

Because that's a rather lacklustre way of 'testing' I must say.

 

Lacklustre?

 

Not really. Far better to leave things alone than to mess about disabling zones and sticking covers over things.

 

Unless your preferred method of testing a system is actually setting fire to something?

[Ynot]

Most places I worked didn't even do that. In fact hot work was used as a tool for testing said fire system.

Hmmm...

And what sort of places have you worked, then?

Because that's a rather lacklustre way of 'testing' I must say.

 

Lacklustre?

 

Not really. Far better to leave things alone than to mess about disabling zones and sticking covers over things.

 

Unless your preferred method of testing a system is actually setting fire to something?

Lacklustre mainly because you seem to be advocating a bit of a poke-and-hope method of testing a safety system!

 

No - I would say that there are FAR better ways to test fire detection systems than this.

[ianknight]

The question of smoke and detectors comes up at our place more often than it used to, my advice to folk generally is "If you're not sure that it won't, then don't hire because it likely will set them off". The only sure way of knowing that smoke won't set off the detector is to have combined smoke and rate of rise of heat detectors but these tend to be an expensive option where a theatre has been told they need a fire alarm.

 

Don't ever believe the fire alarm surveyor who tells you that theatre smoke is different from other smoke - it's a sale pitch - I was sat in the College Theatre control room the first 6 shows after they had the fire alarm system fitted watching the beacons go off as the smoke appeared on stage... :P

 

Some venues cap the detectors (yes - I know they do, I've watched them do it!) and they're easy to forget at the end of the show, other venues insist to the alarm company on having the alarm panel set up properly so detectors put the system in to pre-alarm only (and flash beacons at key areas). If the alarm isn't cancelled within a certain time, the system goes to full alarm so ensuring that the venue is protected (most of the popular panels allow this - it just takes engineer time to program it).

 

My feelings tend with Tony - don't cap unless you really really have no choice - but get someone to look at your RA first!

[Brian]

Interestingly I was in a venue the other day where the sensitivity of the smoke detectors could be adjusted from a remote location (the control panel). This meant that in 'show mode' the detectors were still working but required a higher level of smoke to trigger. No danger of forgetting to remove caps/plastic bags/condoms.