Are You Staff or Freelance?

[mumbles]

I think working on a casual basis counts as basically freelancing - without getting bogged down on your status with HMRC, to count as being "On Staff" I think you need a contracted amount of hours per week / month. I voted the second option - I work full time in this industry, most of my income comes through invoiced jobs, some of it comes through paye work, but I have no obligations towards anyone I work with beyond the last job I accepted.

No, to be freelancing you need to deal with your own tax, deductions, and NI contributions. As casual staff you would normally actually be PAYE on a zero hours contract, and hence employed.

 

M

[David Lee]

No, to be freelancing you need to deal with your own tax, deductions, and NI contributions. As casual staff you would normally actually be PAYE on a zero hours contract, and hence employed

 

No, to be self employed you need to do your own tax etc. Freelancing doesn't really exist officially as far as HMRC are concerned, but in this context could be applied to people working for multiple companies for short periods of time i.e. on one event before moving on to another company and another event (even on 0 hour contracts)

[mark_s]

For the sake of your statistics I haven't voted, as I don't think I fit into the group you wish to survey, but I'm warehouse staff at a hire company, and supplement that significantly by freelance work outside of the warehouse.

[paulears]

If you are in receipt of a student loan, I find it a bit odd that you can shift your 'status' to student, to get that, and then towards self-employed when it suits. The other thing is that as you get a neat, cheap loan from the government to help you afford to study, if you then act as a self-employed person, taking work away from other self-employed people, like it or not, you are in a somewhat privileged position. Your self-employment is choice and is pocket money over and above what you have to live on at uni.

 

If somebody is a student, registered on a recognised FULL TIME programme, then whatever you claim to be, you're a full-time student and part-time self-employed.

 

This is what many people find very difficult. Claim 'student' when it comes to discounts, freebies and other 'benefits', and claim self-employed when it suits. As a registered student, the test for self-employment doesn't work too well. The bit about being able to specify when you work is a good one - doesn't the uni specify when you have to be with them? This then means by extension, you are not in control of your working times and ..... I guess we don't need to worry until the HMRC do an inspection. As somebody who survived one of those, taking a year and nearly two grands worth of accountancy fees, I'd love to see the responses a student would have to some of their questions.

 

Many people's real employment status is pretty dodgy when scrutinised - not just dual purpose student's!

[mumbles]

No, to be self employed you need to do your own tax etc. Freelancing doesn't really exist officially as far as HMRC are concerned, but in this context could be applied to people working for multiple companies for short periods of time i.e. on one event before moving on to another company and another event (even on 0 hour contracts)

Every time I have spoken to the HMRC, both income based tax and VAT related, the HMRC staff use the terms freelance and self employed interchangeably. But yes you are quite right though and I should have used the correct term, rather than those in common usage.

[paulears]

A term I keep hearing more and more often is "non-payroll people" - NPPs, where your contract specifically sets out that you are not in any shape or form to consider yourself a full or part time employee. The other thing I have noticed with one client I work for regularly is that they will deduct tax and NI from anyone who does not have a VAT number. That's an interesting one, but does make sense. A VAT number is allocated by the HMRC themselves, so as they have confirmed you are a proper business before giving it, it's a useful feature they can use to assist their status determination. Another client doesn't trust any of us, so deducts the tax at standard rate (but don't bother with NI) - they all maintain their systems are as they are because of HMRC.

 

NPP/freelance/Self-employed - I don't really think the actual title matters much, just it's acceptance by the people and agencies who matter?

 

What is 100% certain is that HMRC are quite aware of how different industry areas work. So they do understand how weird we are, yet come down hard on so called freelance/self-employed people in other industry areas. People like students don't generate huge incomes, so often fall below the level where the tax people are that interested. In the construction industry, they have much more strict systems because the level of fraud is higher. I suspect actors are probably the people who get us cut slack. They're high profile people, frequently 'resting' or taking ordinary PAYE jobs, then back to self-employment. My son was told, when he informed HMRC about his self-employment status, that PAYE and self-employment can work quite happily together as long as your tax form declares it all properly.

[brainwave-generator]

An accurate post that goes completely with what I put forward initially.

A term I keep hearing more and more often is "non-payroll people" - NPPs, where your contract specifically sets out that you are not in any shape or form to consider yourself a full or part time employee. The other thing I have noticed with one client I work for regularly is that they will deduct tax and NI from anyone who does not have a VAT number. That's an interesting one, but does make sense. A VAT number is allocated by the HMRC themselves, so as they have confirmed you are a proper business before giving it, it's a useful feature they can use to assist their status determination. Another client doesn't trust any of us, so deducts the tax at standard rate (but don't bother with NI) - they all maintain their systems are as they are because of HMRC.

 

The VAT idea works, however, what's wrong with UTR numbers? With a UTR number, a company can quickly ensure you are self-assessed and paying your own contributions.

 

What is 100% certain is that HMRC are quite aware of how different industry areas work. So they do understand how weird we are, yet come down hard on so called freelance/self-employed people in other industry areas. People like students don't generate huge incomes, so often fall below the level where the tax people are that interested. In the construction industry, they have much more strict systems because the level of fraud is higher. I suspect actors are probably the people who get us cut slack. They're high profile people, frequently 'resting' or taking ordinary PAYE jobs, then back to self-employment. My son was told, when he informed HMRC about his self-employment status, that PAYE and self-employment can work quite happily together as long as your tax form declares it all properly.

 

And this is really what I meant in the first place when all this started. In this industry, a huge (and in my opinion and experience, majority) number of jobs given require you to be completely independent, self-assessed, self-insured, etc etc so they can literally, if need be, hire you for a day and never again, and it's no admin for them. Or they can hire you every week. The field is left open.

 

Working self-assessed and PAYE simultaneously is fine. In my accounting software, I have 2 categories of payment. Income (SA) and Income (PAYE). These get recorded to every invoice that I produce, so when I send it all off to the tax office in April, they can clearly see what I pay my own tax on and what has already been paid. They are absolutely fine with it and understand that there are many areas of work where it is commonplace to frequently (in my case, literally daily basis) switch between SA and PAYE situations. So long as they can see a record that tax has been paid every time you have earnt money, they're down with it.

[zonino]

the problem with UTR numbers is that, just because you are self-assessed doesn't mean that the work you are doing in that particular instance qualifies to be contractable under a self-employed basis. using a VAT number doesn't, on first glance, actually provided anything different to it though...

 

The problem with having a clause such as "where your contract specifically sets out that you are not in any shape or form to consider yourself a full or part time employee" is that if its in contravention with the law, its deemed an illegal clause and therefore is irrelevant (in exactly the same way as a H&S disclaimer)

[son of lx dad]

I am stuck how too insert myself into this survey - I am a Soletrader but some companies eg Panalux are not allowed or don't subcontract Soletraders so I have to be on salary with these companies. They only account for 15% - 20% of my income but are a definite part of it. Thoughts?

[indyld]

Anecdotally, it certainly seems like full time staffing, particularly in technical/show roles has continued to be run down by the industry. In the last few years, much restructuring and redundancy has been the norm with former employees being offloaded from the books onto the "freelance" market. It's how our end of things work, in the same way as equipment hire is structured to provided what you need and when without having to commit to owning it.

 

One group of people that continue to bloat some companies in my contact circle, are middle management/office based staff who seem to preside over a lower tier of about two overworked warehouse/technical staff - and all the real shows are run completely with freelancers. It suited me as a freelancer, right up until the point when it didn't - and after 15 years decided to move on to other things.

 

I've voted as a now 1.0 FTE that still freelances when I can. Call it professional development, keeping your hand in, moonlighting, topping up the salary, whatever.... For me, the idea of just leaving the freelance business behind for good doesn't compute, so instead I get to do shows because I want to rather than I HAVE to. I still pay Class 2, keep my insurance paid up, fill in tax returns alongside my PAYE gig, plus the added complications of additional PAYE for ATG and others, I have de registered for VAT though. Actually, I still think of myself as a freelancer that is just currently on a longer term gig for the moment.

 

The flexible nature of the modern work life for people as marketable individuals means that "a little bit of this, little bit of that" is not an uncommon story.

[spartacus]

I have not responded to the poll as I'm currently a full time Engineering uni student.

 

I work casually at two venues averaging around 12 hours a week. A little bit of "mates" work at parties etc, but nothing else.

[pisquee]

I am employed through my own Ltd company.

My company is then contracted to one show in the West End, to supply me.

Due to BECTU/SOLT rules, and the way the company works, I am pretty much treated like an employee, including my company being on the payroll.

[Bobbsy]

 

c) I didn't say nobody gets employed, everyone is freelance. I said there is a decline in the number of people being directly employed and an increase in the amount freelancers are relied upon, so it is advisable for new entrants into this industry to register Self Employed.

 

Actually, exactly what you said was:

 

I get your principle, but its email nowadays, and genuinely companies here just aren't employing. It's all about freelancers.

 

So yes you did say nobody gets employed.

 

On the bigger picture, when I used to hire freelancers I wanted ones with experience who I knew could walk into the job and do it professionally. I used to hire recent graduates into junior jobs but the freelancing was for experience people only. I'm sure there are exceptions to prove every rule but, this poll proves there ARE jobs out there and I believe a graduate is better off getting some years of experience under their belt before trying the self employed route.

 

Bob

[brainwave-generator]

c) I didn't say nobody gets employed, everyone is freelance. I said there is a decline in the number of people being directly employed and an increase in the amount freelancers are relied upon, so it is advisable for new entrants into this industry to register Self Employed.

 

Actually, exactly what you said was:

 

I get your principle, but its email nowadays, and genuinely companies here just aren't employing. It's all about freelancers.

 

So yes you did say nobody gets employed.

 

On the bigger picture, when I used to hire freelancers I wanted ones with experience who I knew could walk into the job and do it professionally. I used to hire recent graduates into junior jobs but the freelancing was for experience people only. I'm sure there are exceptions to prove every rule but, this poll proves there ARE jobs out there and I believe a graduate is better off getting some years of experience under their belt before trying the self employed route.

 

Bob

 

And I don't disagree with you.

 

But tell me, since becoming self-employed (from a legal perspective) is registering self-assessed online which takes 10 minutes... then from a practical point of view you will need your own PLIns and PPE too... which will cost you £200 all-in... what is the harm in becoming self-employed anyway? Even if you do not use it, it is a small price to pay for not cutting yourself off from a large portion of the available jobs.

 

 

 

[Smiffy]

you will need your own PLIns and PPE too... which will cost you £200 all-in

PPE should cost you more than £200.00, if you're talking Hard Hat, Steelies, Harness, Lanyards with Scaff Hooks, and Gloves.

 

PLI is an average of about £250.00

 

 

Just pointing that out given the large amount of kids out there that seem to think just saying you are a freelance whatever is more than enough.... It aint cheap.

 

 

Cheers

 

Smiffy