Brand Snobbery

[mac.calder]

I think desks are not one worth comparing - unless they operate in a similar fashion. When budget is close to unlimited, the choice of desk is based almost solely on familiarity... If neither unit had been used by the operator before, then looking at desks similar to what the user has used will tend to decide the choice (Hog users will almost always tend towards the MA, people who know Pearls will tend to the Diamond)

 

A better one to investigate would be something like the MacIII vs the HES XT1 - high end fixtures by respected high end manufacturers with high end feature sets attempting to fill a similar niche. Or the Mac700 vs the Robe 700AT. Both workhorse fixtures with a strong feature set, one a fair bit cheaper however the other has greater market penetration. Both very good fixtures.

 

I guess the other thing to investigate would be how does the choice of distributor affect the purchasers decision. Example would be Robe and Martin. In Australia, the distributors are ULA (Robe) and ShowTechnology (Martin). If you look at the other inventory in many of the hire companies stocks, it becomes fairly clear that some hire companies prefer to buy from ULA and some prefer to buy from ShowTechnology. How does this affect brand snobbery? When I was looking into transparent LED solutions for example, both ULA and ShowTechnology have options in this market at a similar price point with a very similar feature set - when I asked two hire companies on either side of the divide which they would suggest getting, they both came back with their favored distributors product, and bagging the opposition. Neither hire company stocked transparent LED, nor were they planning to in the near future, so they had no financial incentive to push me in either direction... It was an interesting little exercise.

[musht]

So a good example, could be -

 

Why does one person spec a Diamond 4 for a job, where another may spec a Grand MA. Similar priced products, and that's where the discussion starts.

 

Not sure that it is, Avolites are a respected `Rolls Royce` brand and always have been, they started when high density dimming was new and set benchmarks that others are measured by.

 

Control consoles a bit different, wish had the opportunity to develop such a taste, but are very much a personal preference, imagine D4 and GrandMA present themselves differently to the user and personal experience and comfort factor more influence than hire cost ,which is probaby pretty much irrelevent at that level.

 

Someone speccing Chamsys be looked down upon for speccing a new kid on the block contender?

 

Martin didn`t come anywhere close to inventing a moving lite, they followed the Coemar, Clay Paky, High End pack and then sponsored a Gary numan comeback tour to try and get rid of `disco tat` label. Like a lot of things the second mouse gets the cheese ;-)

 

Brands are getting talked about here seriously nowadays that 3 years ago would have been met with non too subtle suggestions to ask on a mobile DJ forum, Elation , Chauvet , ADJ...

 

Midas are owned by Behringer , Cadac by Soudking, buy Blitish.

 

What a brand offers someone is some guarantee of performance, if I buy Heinz Tomoato Ketchup pretty much guaranteed its flavour and I`ll pay a premium for that, if its lighting equipment may make judgements based on cost of it going wrong to be honest.

 

If a major brand suffers unpredicted catastrophic failure 5 mins after curtain up , will point at smouldering kit and explain with evidence that it`s considered industry standard and could never be expected to fail in such a way. This excuse may not come across so well if the equipment was notably some sort of knock off,obviously cheap version or clearly not quite the right thing. The no one ever got fired for ordering IBM theory.

 

Herd instinct also seems to drive this to an extent, buying BrandX because everyone else has BrandX and it makes cross hire and quote gouging so much easier.

[Smiffy]

That's not so much brand snobbery, that's more price point vs features or quailty.

 

Sorry to appear consistently contrarian where your posts are concerned LightSource, but brand snobbery surely has arisen because of the perceived features and quality of the 'Brand' name manufacturers versus the rip off's and the cheaper kit?

 

These days I'll generally always spec a GrandMA or an Eos, simply because they suit my current programming style, I know them well, and they do all that I ask and more without issue and without falling over (touch wood) mid gig. I used to spec Avo's, I don't so much any more simply because I just haven't had cause to use them as I have felt ETC and GMA have met all my needs, and I already have more than enough desks in my head. That said, I wouldn't panic if a rental company told me they could only do me a D4 or Pearl rather than the GMA that I asked for however, as Avo are a Brand that I know, with a product that I can get my head around reasonably quickly with a bit of logic and patience, and they have a good reputation.

 

If Fictitious Lighting Rentals Ltd told me they could only do me a Happy Monkey Lighting Desk Company copy of a D4 or a GMA, then I'd tell them to go away, get me a real desk, and stop putting my show in jeopardy. The rip off desk could well be running the exact same software as the originals, but I know nothing of the build quality, reliability, or capability of the product. It may or may not also be a rip off, and it's something that we LD's and as many rental companies as possible should do what we can to tell less reputable manufacturers that copying peoples R&D is wrong.

 

If the Happy Monkey Lighting Desk Company were to build their own console with their own R&D that could do all that I needed, in as quick and efficient a manner as possible, and was reliable, then I might think again. But by that point, I would have had to have heard good things about it, and so by that time they would be on their way to becoming a recognised 'Brand Name' themselves.

 

Cheers

 

Smiffy

[Shez]

A good current example might be Line6's digital radio mics. Their price point is not wildly dissimilar to Sennheiser's EW100 3G series and at the end of the day, they do exactly the same job. But Line6 is very much associated with MI products whereas Sennheiser have a heritage and reputation few companies can equal. From my experience thus far, I'm happy to use either but put them side by side on the hire shelf with a similar price tag and how many people would pick the Line6 over the Senny?

[Pete McCrea]

Brand Snobbery is usually about reputation, perceived or actual.

 

We've got a bit of D&B in stock. It sounds ok to my ears, and the efficiency seems good. I mean that's what people keep banging on about with D&B. We had the Shure Rep in to demonstrate the QSC K series powered boxes. These sounded great, and come in at a reasonable price point, and would be ideal for smaller conferencing work.

 

However I won't be able to sub hire them out. And that's probably due to the 'Name' and fact that thye aren't in rental stock in other companies to any great level, where as D&B has the market penetration.

 

Brand Snobbery can also 'help'. Being a D&B or Barco stocking rental house can help to lift you above those potentially offering alternative brands. Holding Barco has certainly help lift us up a level.

[pdwyse]

This exact subject came up in a mobile DJ forum sometime ago. Brand snobbery is fairly rife amoung the DJ community - frequently amoungst the errr less proffesional section

Which actually says quite a lot!

 

In the BR, Behringer tends to be the ugly duckling, but most of the professionals in here will happily say there is a time and place for it.

The key is buying with your eyes wide open. Do lots of homework.

 

El-cheapo can be a good investment, if you know what you are letting yourself in for, equally it can be a very bad one....

 

Why spend a premium amount on gear if something budget will do the job perfect well in your situation?

 

I dont think I have worked in a single theatre that doesn't have something by behringer..... useful for the rack DI's and rack headphone amps.

 

Growing up being taught different things in different venues, one of the biggest things I have learnt is seasoned pro's and technician are the ones that search around and use whats best for the budget and the job and often what the council or regional trust will let them buy etc. I have found its the younger and newer technicians that seem to always want to use the most expensive and biggest name often disregarding the actual use of the that product within the industry and the practicality of using it within the venue you are in.

[EmmaThompson]

Emma.....(Ms. Avolites)

 

Well done, yes I work for Avolites, however I do not speak for the company on matters outside technical support on the forum, and I believe I am entitled to my own opinion? And If you actually read my post you might see I was talking about fixtures rather than control desks...

 

I simply said that in my experience with cheaper fixtures they don't do the job as well as the Robe/Martin/Clay Paky kit I've used. If your experience is different, far be it from me to disagree.

 

As far as brand snobbery goes, it would be an interesting discussion to compare 'snobbery' between, the Pearl or Diamond, versus (for example) A Grand MA, or other consoles in a similar price bracket to the competition. Features between all consoles are very different, so does 'brand snobbery' lean to features a user likes, whereas the rival console went down a route that was 'frowned upon'

[/Quote]

 

I think the "snobbery" arguement would be better suited to discuss buying a real Pearl, made in the UK with legit software, to a chinese copy with no quality control (from Avo at least) and stolen software, surely?

 

 

But that's the whole point of this topic. It's not 'cheap crappy' vs the rest of the world, it's more of a 'why do you choose this product over that one'

 

So a good example, could be -

 

Why does one person spec a Diamond 4 for a job, where another may spec a Grand MA. Similar priced products, and that's where the discussion starts.

[/Quote]

 

Consoles are IMO a completely different matter - whereas one light will have pretty much identical attributes to another, consoles think and work in completely different ways, even though they do pretty much the same job.

 

(And btw if you could buy a full size MA for the same price as a D4 I'd be amazed... I think a lot of people would want to know who your supplier was! And my pet hate is people judging a Pearl running software from 10 years ago against Hog/MA - use the new software and then have an opinion!).

 

 

Users will spec what they're comfortable with and trust (whether it's a top end brand or a lower end one) and I think this is the most important point - if you spec a relatively unknown brand because it's cheap, whether it be a copy console, or a fixture, and it falls over mid-gig, how annoyed would you be? As Musht says, a brand is some guarantee of performance, and the bigger brands have stayed around and got bigger because people keep speccing them because they work, and if they don't, they're usually pretty quick to do something about it.

[kerry davies]

Two short tales regarding brand snobbery; Musht mentions Rolls Royce as an exemplar yet during WW11 they failed miserably to produce Merlins in any quantity. Ford engineers in Dagenham redesigned the machine tolerances and made 34,000 of 'em at Trafford Park, Manchester. "Dagenham dustbins save the world!"

 

Couple of years back a posse in Norf Lunnon demanded Pioneer CDJ(500's I think) and cursed me up and down the airwaves when they would not work. I pointed out that if they chose any other track it would be OK. "Track 1 just will not play with the reverse switch thrown unless you start at track 2."

 

Both the posse and Churchill wanted the right label, neither could make either work!

[Kelite]

Musht mentions Rolls Royce as an exemplar yet during WW11 they failed miserably to produce Merlins in any quantity. Ford engineers in Dagenham redesigned the machine tolerances and made 34,000 of 'em at Trafford Park, Manchester. "Dagenham dustbins save the world!"

 

 

So true. Sometimes the more straight forward approach gets the product out the warehouse door. Without the 34,000 "Dagenham dustbins" history would likely have been greatly altered.

 

(FWIW, I prefer Neutrik but only because I have tried the rest and was not terribly impressed...)

[peza2010]

There some interesting discussions here... And I can see everyones point of view. I think one of the big things mentioned is the hire industry, I'm interested in the fact that stocking the well known brands is certainly good for business... But to those involved with hire company's... Does stocking well known brands, help shift other things from your shelves? For example the fact that you own

The "d&b ------ rig" helps you in the way that people want that rig, so since stocking it business has increased, or is that extended to people seeing you have that well known rig has increased hires of other things? 

 

Also are you allowed/and do you use the big brands logos on your websites? And do you think this helps?

 

Once again for the record, I am in no way thinking about setting up a hire business! I'm just interested :) 

[lightsource]

Emma.....(Ms. Avolites)

 

Well done, yes I work for Avolites, however I do not speak for the company on matters outside technical support on the forum, and I believe I am entitled to my own opinion? And If you actually read my post you might see I was talking about fixtures rather than control desks...

 

I simply said that in my experience with cheaper fixtures they don't do the job as well as the Robe/Martin/Clay Paky kit I've used. If your experience is different, far be it from me to disagree.

 

As far as brand snobbery goes, it would be an interesting discussion to compare 'snobbery' between, the Pearl or Diamond, versus (for example) A Grand MA, or other consoles in a similar price bracket to the competition. Features between all consoles are very different, so does 'brand snobbery' lean to features a user likes, whereas the rival console went down a route that was 'frowned upon'

[/Quote]

 

I think the "snobbery" arguement would be better suited to discuss buying a real Pearl, made in the UK with legit software, to a chinese copy with no quality control (from Avo at least) and stolen software, surely?

 

 

But that's the whole point of this topic. It's not 'cheap crappy' vs the rest of the world, it's more of a 'why do you choose this product over that one'

 

So a good example, could be -

 

Why does one person spec a Diamond 4 for a job, where another may spec a Grand MA. Similar priced products, and that's where the discussion starts.

[/Quote]

 

Consoles are IMO a completely different matter - whereas one light will have pretty much identical attributes to another, consoles think and work in completely different ways, even though they do pretty much the same job.

 

(And btw if you could buy a full size MA for the same price as a D4 I'd be amazed... I think a lot of people would want to know who your supplier was! And my pet hate is people judging a Pearl running software from 10 years ago against Hog/MA - use the new software and then have an opinion!).

 

 

Users will spec what they're comfortable with and trust (whether it's a top end brand or a lower end one) and I think this is the most important point - if you spec a relatively unknown brand because it's cheap, whether it be a copy console, or a fixture, and it falls over mid-gig, how annoyed would you be? As Musht says, a brand is some guarantee of performance, and the bigger brands have stayed around and got bigger because people keep speccing them because they work, and if they don't, they're usually pretty quick to do something about it.

 

Emma, Chill! I have passed many organisations to to your company or it's installers, as I don't do Installs myself. I will always be respectful and treasure the Avolites brand, as you are a quality UK based lighting company. And indirectly, I am one of your customers.

 

However, Brand Snobbery is a totally different issue. It's simply the question as to why do we rate product X over product Y, whatever that product may be.

 

Some have mentioned Chinese Imports and fake goods,

 

I've seen a fake (Chinese) Pearl, which looks physically stunning. What measures are Avolites taking from stopping this company from flooding the market with this piece of cr*p?

 

This is brand snobbery, at the most basic level.I would really like to hear an AVO discussion on fake goods.

[Bobbsy]

There's a fine line between "buying for quality" and "brand snobbery" and the most canny buyers have good reasons beyond "the name" to buy better gear.

 

I come at things from the sound side of the industry and, while I often credit Behringer with being "great value for money" (and even use some of their kit) there are a great many times I know I need the reliability and audio quality of a name brand. So long as you have genuine and verifiable reasons for your purchase or hire choices, that's not "brand snobbery". It's professionalism.

 

On the flip side of that coin, though, even the greats make bad products and manage to use their name to sell an over-priced, sub standard piece of kit. Again, from the sound side of this, my favourite example was the Midas Venice. To me it was overpriced, especially considering the cramped, confusing panel layout and the 60mm faders. I've had Venice evangelists try to convince me these things are minor compared to the "legendary Midas sound". Well, I'm sorry. I've used "grown up" Midas boards (analogue and digital) and the Venice isn't in that league despite the name badge. I'd rather spend 30-40% less on a Soundcraft or A&H equivalent, get an easier to use board and, to my ears, just as good a quality.

 

Anyway, just to sum up, it's important to use the best tool for the job--but the trick is to know the gear you're talking about and not just assume a certain brand is always best. And, even further, there's room in the industry for gear at a wide range of price points. The needs and priorities of a hundred person pub gig are very different from a Wembley Stadium concert.

 

Bob

[Chappie]

Well, I'm sorry. I've used "grown up" Midas boards (analogue and digital) and the Venice isn't in that league despite the name badge.

And I know Midas engineers who would agree with you on that, which is why they've put quite a bit of effort into the new one.

[dbuckley]

Isn't the Venice a badge engineered DDA or DDT or something similar, rather than being an original Midas product? Midas liked them so much they did a Remmington??

[sleah]

but then again my Behringer desk has 2 dead stereo channels, they just make a horrible crackly buzzy type noise. It's just over a year old.

If you turn any of the channel gain pots to 85% or beyond they actually become white noise generators. More of a noise mezzanine than a noise floor :** laughs out loud **:

Oh, and it actively seeks out mains hum from anywhere, regardless of DI/GLI's!

 

You get what you pay for!