Brand Snobbery

[peza2010]

Errr morning all...

I'm just interested to see what peoples views and experiences of "brand snobbery" are.

 

Do you think we are right to choose a "top flight" brand, and pay for the badge, or do you think there are a lot of better alternatives for things, but people are hooked up on brand snobbery and don't look past it?

 

What are your experiences with this? Do you find the branded (or better know) products perform better than the less well know/cheaper options? Or have you had any experiences when the "unshure sm58.5" has out out played the more expensive one?

 

And... Does "you get what you pay for" always ring true..

 

And for the record, I'm not writing any essays, or thinking about flogging a load of fakes on fleabay, I'm just interested... :)

[Junior8]

Accused of 'Brand Snobbery' by me Dad who is a snapper put it like this. If you take two pretty well 'identical' cameras in terms of facilities features etc and one is a Leica at say £4000 and the other is another make at £500 you could from time to time get a cheaper one that performs as well as the Leica but most often not. What you are getting for the extra £3500 is the guarantee that each one that come out of the box is of equal quality and performance. It might not be seven times better than the cheaper one but it will be of a fixed agreed high standard. Similarly I once worked with a woman who'd been at Reslo in the early sixties and she told me the reject rate on microphone ribbons was colossal due to the high quality control imposed. I think she said that if they got two or three passed out of fifty they thought they'd done well but I may have mis-remembered that. It was incredibly strict though. (Also - and I add this as a reminder of just how far we've come in fifty years - she also told me, assuring me that it was quite true, that they were not allowed to work on the ribbon line during their period as it was reckoned statistically that the individual worker's reject rate went up substantially at that time ie they got none through. Fred Bentham mentioned something similar about relay manufacturing in the Compton Factory I think.)

[sleah]

This exact subject came up in a mobile DJ forum sometime ago. Brand snobbery is fairly rife amoung the DJ community - frequently amoungst the errr less proffesional section

Which actually says quite a lot!

 

In the BR, Behringer tends to be the ugly duckling, but most of the professionals in here will happily say there is a time and place for it.

The key is buying with your eyes wide open. Do lots of homework.

 

El-cheapo can be a good investment, if you know what you are letting yourself in for, equally it can be a very bad one....

 

Why spend a premium amount on gear if something budget will do the job perfect well in your situation?

[Ashley R]

I must admit, I did (and still do) have a high desire to get my hands on some quality new gear. Im a little bit tired of haveing to use slightly sub standard no name gear/ old in poor condition brand stuff to do a show with.

 

But im all for buying to suit the purpose. No need for a top of the line $5000 Pixel Par 90, just to do a bit of eye candy.

 

And I will agree with sleah, and research, research, research! And sometimes a small leap of faith is required.

 

Its sometimes quite amusing when I see Dj's decked out with a pair of Pioneer CDJ 2000's, But then only to be using the cheapest speakers they can find, and having a very tacky light show. And the glow that just emits from them is amazing! :D

 

Oh and the desire for kids to say they have used 10x MAC 700's or something else from Martin. When I could have done it with something half the cost and that would have produced the same effect if not better. (also the habit for waggly's but that has been done to death already!)

 

At the moment im all for cheapo LED Par cans. As I know by the time they hit the skip, or get to a point where there's something brighter, I can just flog them off with a second thought and upgrade to the next shiny new LED can fresh out of China.

[Yorkie]

I do sometimes wonder if I'm a brand snob because I will only buy Neutrik connectors.

 

An electrician put my mind at rest though; he will only install MK sockets & switches - reason why, for a small price premium they are much more dependable. Why try to save money if the thing you install is more likely to fail and mean you have to go back and sort it out. Stocking one type means less storage space required, greater quantity discounts available and quoting becomes quicker because you know what item you're selling. It takes me twice as long to install another type of socket because we don't use them every day.

[sleah]

Oh and the desire for kids to say they have used 10x MAC 700's or something else from Martin. When I could have done it with something half the cost and that would have produced the same effect if not better.

Yes yes yes!

 

If I'd bought a couple of Mac for disco use 4 times a year you lot would shoot me down in flames for spending £6K for no return..... instead I bought two Stairville heads for £400 (the pair B-) ) which do exactly what I want. Accuracy? So what? Occasional missalignment? So what? Prisms & rotating gobos? So what? :** laughs out loud **:

 

The other irony with wagglys easpecially, is programming is exactly the same on any given desk. OK a Mac may have a couple more features, but it's just a value between 0 & 255 on a channel.... The splodge of light on the ground is pretty much the same given a few lumens here and there ;)

 

Budget gear can challenge you a bit more too :** laughs out loud **: you try to get two cheap wagglys to do the same thing over and over and over again..... takes skill and patience does that :D

[Ashley R]

Oh and the desire for kids to say they have used 10x MAC 700's or something else from Martin. When I could have done it with something half the cost and that would have produced the same effect if not better.

Yes yes yes!

 

If I'd bought a couple of Mac for disco use 4 times a year you lot would shoot me down in flames for spending £6K for no return..... instead I bought two Stairville heads for £400 (the pair B-) ) which do exactly what I want. Accuracy? So what? Occasional misalignment? So what? Prisms & rotating gobos? So what? :** laughs out loud **:

 

The other irony with wagglys especially, is programming is exactly the same on any given desk. OK a Mac may have a couple more features, but it's just a value between 0 & 255 on a channel.... The splodge of light on the ground is pretty much the same given a few lumen's here and there ;)

 

Budget gear can challenge you a bit more too :** laughs out loud **: you try to get two cheap wagglys to do the same thing over and over and over again..... takes skill and patience does that :D

 

I would absolutely love if someone bought me a couple of Mac's (Hint Hint anyone thinking of binning some).

 

I mean we hired for a show a pair of Mac 250 Entour's, simply because the hire comp didn't have anything cheaper, we had run out of ch's to stick 20 profiles up to project the gobo's and we don't own any gobo's.

 

The next year I brought along my pair of PR Solo 250's to do the job instead. They worked brilliantly. (A bit better suited to the job with their 16deg lenses) and we were only using them as replacements for profile spots (again running out of ch's) Pair of Mac 250's retail - $12,000 if I'm lucky. Pair of PR solo 250's - $2000 :D

 

Only thing that peeves me off is the combined shutter/dimmer ch... would it have killed them to stick the dimmer on another ch? or to make the Max strobe rate a bit faster. Or to make it pan at least 360deg (for some reason they only pan 355deg :huh: ) or even better still the claimed 370deg!

 

Used the tool for the job and thats it. A few of the other guys were impressed that we were even using waggly's

 

But then again, I found the mac 250 a bit cluttered. With fine this and fine that. I just wanted plain and simple! I mean common, to get to the kind of distances where you need fine pan for that extra half a deg, that 250w lamp ain't going to cut it. and ive found punching values into my keypad just as effective! (and quicker).

 

Oh and here's the kicker to where the bit about kids boasting about using 10x Mac 700's came from, (although I'm only 16 myself!) Was talking to another "teenager tech" and he was saying how he had 10x MAC 700's to use for his show, I'm going in my head I want those! Then the thought occurred to me, what the hell requires 10x Mac700's? After a fair bit more prodding and questioning he finally told me they were in fact some 575w Chinese junk they had been loaned by an Ex student, and not the Mac 700's he originally claimed they were, just to make himself sound important! I HATE people like that.

 

And I did at one point, the Want to own some Martin gear got just that great, that I went out and bought 3x Martin RoboScan Pro 218 Mk 1!!! and 4x Robo 518 (not fully working) Oh and the desire to own a stack of moving lights, ok I put my hand up im guilty! I came to my senses about 1 month after my purchase when I took the 218's out for a gig. Heavy, not that bright, noisy. Finally sold them. At a profit! so all's well, and I think my brand snobbery has disappeared for a while (although I would like a pair of Mac 250 Krypts)

[Junior8]

At the moment im all for cheapo LED Par cans. As I know by the time they hit the skip, or get to a point where there's something brighter, I can just flog them off with a second thought and upgrade to the next shiny new LED can fresh out of China.

 

I think that's the difference between 'then and now'. When I started out Ferrogaph for example built machines that would and were expected to last for decades - and were priced accordingly. So a venue that in 1965 bought one with say a couple of Reslos, and amplifier by perhaps Vortexion and a panatrope with p/u arms weighing around six tons felt it was a once in a lifetime investment and they probably would have gone for certain 'snobbish' brands* even if cheaper alternatives were available.

 

In so many technical areas these days the rate of progress is such that it can be in return on investment terms unwise to invest using such criteria.

 

* others my age could reel the list off and probably when they went to the wall too! being a snobbish brand didn't save them!

[Shaggy]

There is certainly a place for cheaper equipment. However you need to be realistic as to the gigs your equipment can do, and to the acceptability to any client with technical knowledge. As an example, I recently used a 300w moving head that wasn't from a major brand. For some work it would be fine, and it had a lot of features (2 gobo wheels, CMY etc). However it lacked enough output and was not reliable. Some fixtures turned up broken from the hire company, and although a spare had been specced, it wasn't delivered for the get-in because there was a delay getting parts from the manufacturer. This level of performance may have been acceptable for a one night disco gig or over staffed corporate event, but for a month long panto with brightly lit scenes it was entirely the wrong light.

 

The other issue is not snobbery but familiarity. A name brand with good support that has sold a lot of product is something you are more likely to have seen and trusted. If I turn up at a venue bringing a PA and there is an installed PA that is a brand I have used before and that is going to be loud enough to do the gig I may leave my PA on the truck and save time on the in and out. If that PA is from a lesser known brand, even if it is an expensive one, I'm less likely to have used it and less likely to take the risk when a bit more effort gives a guaranteed result.

[lightsource]

I really don't know where to start here, Brand Snobbery could be one issue, from a user's point of view, but 'Tech Spec's or Technical Riders' is an aspect that hire companies have to address on a daily basis.

 

I've had Tech riders that have specifically stated "No Behringer", or "No Yamaha Graphics", so there has to be a hire stock that can cater for all.

 

As for microphones, they are very individual to the persons involved. Take the AKG C1000 Condenser for example, many people love it, but there's quite a lot of people on this forum who would scream harsh language at it and throw it at the nearest hard object, just to get rid of it. A microphone needs to suit the artist or the instrument and there's a vast range out there.

 

Whilst the SM58 is an industry standard, so is the Beta range, the Sennheiser Evolution range, and a few others. That's the personal preference of the Artist ot the Sound Engineer ( ;) Or a heated argument between both!)

 

The main player of all brand evolution however must be Marshall. Timeless, for over 40 years.

 

JBL Loudspeakers are huge in the US, especially the VerTec Line Array, this side of the pond, not so, L-Acoustics, Mayer, Function One, and others, seem to rank far higher than JBL in this country.

 

So, QSC, vs Citronic, Martin vs Showtec, L Acoustics vs Soundlab.

Thats a very basic covering in the difference between products, but it has to be asked, where does the budget lie?, as Budget creates the ability to fund your requirements.

 

I'm just interested to see what peoples views and experiences of "brand snobbery" are.

[/Quote]

 

To be honest, there is no real answer. One point may state that you get what yo pay for, yet another may state that I used cheap fixture 'X' to do a job and it worked well.

 

There is no real answer to this type of question, we weigh the situation up, and use the tool that we think appropriate, weather a mic, moving head or piece of truss.

[bigclive]

I do sometimes wonder if I'm a brand snob because I will only buy Neutrik connectors.

 

An electrician put my mind at rest though; he will only install MK sockets & switches - reason why, for a small price premium they are much more dependable. Why try to save money if the thing you install is more likely to fail and mean you have to go back and sort it out. Stocking one type means less storage space required, greater quantity discounts available and quoting becomes quicker because you know what item you're selling. It takes me twice as long to install another type of socket because we don't use them every day.

 

Even the highest profile brands have their bad moments. MK have put out some very inferior gear in the past.

 

I'd say that the choice of Neutrik connectors is a good one. They are more expensive, but their pins are less likely to tarnish and bend like the cheaper brands.

[lightsource]

I'd say that the choice of Neutrik connectors is a good one. They are more expensive, but their pins are less likely to tarnish and bend like the cheaper brands.

 

To be honest, I spec'd a DMX cable a few years ago that was a bit of a beast, it had an overall diameter of over 7mm (can't remember the exact size. The only 3 pin XLR's I've found suitable for this cable is by Neutrik, and I have over 200m in hire stock. about 20 cables in all.

 

Cables and Connectors are at the bottom end of the equipment chain....but one of the most important decisions that can be made. Purchase the best product in the world, then 'skimp' on the connectors, then you're finished, £100K of DMX lighting is going to look very poor if the signal can't reach the fixtures. :(

 

On a seperate note,

 

Interestingly Brand Snobbery varies between markets, for example:

 

Live Professional Production:

 

Martin, RCF, dB, QSC, Shure, Klark Technic, Sennheiser, Mayer etc....

 

Disco / DJ

 

Kam, Citronic, Skytech, Soundlab, Showtec.

 

I suppose it's the you get what you pay for argument, but each is truly to their own.

 

It could also be said, that the Live Professional Production argument, demands a higher fee than the 'DJ' environment, so, higher fee, better products.

 

It's difficult to know where to stop.

 

A simple example is within my own hire company, I can do Disco's with cheap crappy lights if that's all the customer can afford, or I can put Programmed Mac's in if they have the budget.

 

The problem with the DJ industry, is that £350 per job is about their Max limit, as they 'usually' (I put that word in brackets as to not offend anyone) satisfy their customers.

 

The problem is, in that price bracket, limited resources are available, so cheaper products need to be sourced.

[sleah]

Even the highest profile brands have their bad moments. MK have put out some very inferior gear in the past.

 

I think all manufacturers have had their bad days.... and to add balance some who normally have a bad reputation occasionally put out a real gem. Our friends Behringer being a prime example of people saying thy are inferior and make rubbish, but many of us will have that odd little wink-wonk or gadget bearing the Behringer name that we wouldn't be without and can't find fault with :)

 

Curious how opinions can change too. I have some Martin 812 Roboscans for disco use that I've had about 15 years now. I'm inclined to think they put Martin on the map when it comes to wagglys. The previous incarnations were.... well say no more ;) But the 812 was a serious contender against the big boys. They brought the waggly to the masses :D

 

That said, not too many years ago there seemed to be some kind of Martin 'Hate campain' where they were slated left right and centre. Then along came the 'real'budget gear, and Martin was cool again B-) :** laughs out loud **:

Close on 20years on, and the 812 will still wipe the floor with most budget scans, both in terms of functionality and build quality, it takes quite a lot of abuse to kill most Martin gear :D

[EmmaThompson]

I don't think it's "snobbery" as such, just that the bigger brand names are generally big for a reason. Yes, they are built to last, have the latest technology in them, and such have a price tag to match. There is a market for the cheaper products, LED certainly, but don't expect it to last. I've had a couple of LED cans in my showroom, one of which colour mixes in halves rather than the entire output, and other keeps blowing the fuse whenever I plug it in. The Terbly moving lights we've had sent in make the most horrendous noise when they're on, and despite being a similar size to a Robe 700 spot, weigh more than the 1200!

 

You get what you pay for most of the time.

[lightsource]

I don't think it's "snobbery" as such, just that the bigger brand names are generally big for a reason. Yes, they are built to last, have the latest technology in them, and such have a price tag to match. There is a market for the cheaper products, LED certainly, but don't expect it to last. I've had a couple of LED cans in my showroom, one of which colour mixes in halves rather than the entire output, and other keeps blowing the fuse whenever I plug it in. The Terbly moving lights we've had sent in make the most horrendous noise when they're on, and despite being a similar size to a Robe 700 spot, weigh more than the 1200!

 

You get what you pay for most of the time.

 

Emma.....(Ms. Avolites)

 

That's not so much brand snobbery, that's more price point vs features or quailty.

 

As far as brand snobbery goes, it would be an interesting discussion to compare 'snobbery' between, the Pearl or Diamond, versus (for example) A Grand MA, or other consoles in a similar price bracket to the competition. Features between all consoles are very different, so does 'brand snobbery' lean to features a user likes, whereas the rival console went down a route that was 'frowned upon'

 

I don't think it's "snobbery" as such, just that the bigger brand names are generally big for a reason

[/Quote]

 

But that's the whole point of this topic. It's not 'cheap crappy' vs the rest of the world, it's more of a 'why do you choose this product over that one'

 

So a good example, could be -

 

Why does one person spec a Diamond 4 for a job, where another may spec a Grand MA. Similar priced products, and that's where the discussion starts.