What's the best way to get work & experience in the west-end?

[Oovis]

If you hunt the job boards for a different industry, the amount of jobs that require you to have a degree is vast.

 

There is always the education Vs. Experience debate, at the end of the day when you are 35, done touring, have a child and you need the stable income, and your employer is looking at two of you, one with a degree one without, who is he more likely to pick?

 

Insurance is one of the many things that is against you, but unless you live within easy access of the West End, its still against you. Trains don't run all night, if you drive congestion charge will eat into you..all the gripes of living in London.

I'm a Chief Electrician in the West End with 23 years experience. I've been Chief here for 15 of those years.

 

I'm struggling to understand the comments regarding degrees. Why look at job boards for a different industry and then compare them to this? The OP wasn't asking about working on oil rigs ;) I can't think of a single time I've asked for proof of a degree. I would employ through experience and recommendation any day. My Deputy says her degree was useless and didn't open a single door for her. She's done various jobs and used that experience to work her way up.

 

Trains from London run well past the time shows come down so that is null and void. I have staff working here living in deepest darkest Kent who only have trouble when it snows.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

Second, you need to remember that, in theatre terms, the West End is generally considered to top rung of the industry so they get to pick and choose who they hire.

Years ago I would be swamped with CVs, now they're very rare. I don't know about other theatres around here but our casuals list has been shrinking for a while now.

 

A concurrent post has been automatically merged from this point on.

 

I think I may give a few of the theatres a call, have a chat with the 'powers that be' for this type of thing. A casual conversation about possible opportunities can't harm can it?

Hmm.. A good CV with a covering letter would be better than a phone call but don't point us to your website as the Theatre link on your portfolio page doesn't currently work. Learn the name of the Chief Electrician and the gender too. Don't be frustrated if there's no reply as often there are few jobs going apart from holiday cover.

 

It's always a problem of right place at the right time. I was lucky as I did a City and Guilds and was seconded here just before a junior job came up and I've been here ever since. A secondment to a different theatre may not have been so fruitful.

 

One of my regulars has worked here on and off for over 10 years. He first got a call from me as his CV landed on my desk the day I needed someone, he had worked in another theatre earlier in the month whom I could call, and he was free to work that day. Timing!

[ramdram]

The answers you wanted are all above Aaron...plus that bit of good news from Oovis ref educational qualifications.

 

IF you think you are up to working in the WE then you might as well warn them you are on your way. So, cobble up a "script", so you won't stray off the point, and start ringing around all the WE theatres. Prior to that you might as well research the various heads of dept in the theatres, so you can at least demonstrate you have the wit to do your homework and at least to whom you should be addressing your enquiry...keep in mind the research thing btw.

 

Were you to bang off a load of cvs then be advised yours will not be unique and a cv runs the risk of being binned...if you bombard a particular theatre with your cv then be warned it could get filed under "nuisance" or "pest" or worse..."wannabe" and very likely you will defeat the object. If you simply must treat everyone to your CV then avoid like the plague "enlarging" your role in any production...nothing along the lines of "it was me wot saved the show".

 

Simply list production and position and let the reader decide what to make of your claims...he won't care if you say you are a "hard worker" that's a given anyway...and any employer will gladly teach you their interpretation of "hard work", ** laughs out loud **, on the general principle that only their view matters anyway.

 

Mentioned above are comments to the effect you might need to be eighteen for the insurance thing...and if you look at some of the responses Jenna got some while ago and more recently; you might research the working hours you, as a non eighteen year old, are permitted to work. This is not to dampen your enthusiasm, it is the law. Would you want to work for an employer who was content to bend the law anyway?

 

You might consider ringing around specialist insurers to find out what their position is on a lad your age working in the technical aspects of theatre....and would their block policy cover you in "a" theatre anyway if you worked on your own on under close supervision, say.

 

You might also research the H&S gen to satisfy yourself about this business of being eighteen...you may recall the issue on pyros being discussed just prior to Christmas.

 

Some of the responses above have been along the lines of "questioning" your experience. Yes, you have got your "knees brown" (old mob expression) in YOUR opinion, but, it is the opinion of your prospective employer that matters. Some might consider you have spread yourself a bit thin...

 

Therefore, when you ring round you will learn, presuming you can actually get through and talk to the HoD, exactly what they want...to repeat, your view matters not one whit. (You won't be the only nipper going down this route and the particular manager might just be a tad less enthusiastic than you are.)

 

This means that very probably you will hear repeated exactly the sentiments expressed in this forum. You might hear too that they do in fact have a list of "known" stage/technical crew and it might be closed. This is, possibly, a good indicator that there is not that much work about, for your skill level, and, by not adding you to their list could be their way of letting you down as gently as possible.

 

Sincerely HTH.

[Smiffy]

Couldn't have put it better myself RamDram! ;)

 

Worth bearing in mind that whether you are 17 or 30, the same applies. So even if you do get kicked back this time 'round, prepare for a lifetime of it. As most here know, and at the risk of this sounding a bit like a me, me, me sort of post; I'm coming back to work in the UK after 9 years away, and I'm about to start the same process that you are Aaron. The only advantage that I have over you is experience and contacts, and the fact that I am not after a spot op's position, so on that front you are safe.

 

Having said that of course, I wouldn't turn down some spot operating work if it helped pay the bills. The point I am trying to make in my roundabout and rambling way though, is that whether or not you manage to get any work out of it, the process is as important a learning experience as the job itself. As I say, prepare for a lifetime of knockbacks and no's... It is the way of things.

 

Best of luck nevertheless.

 

Smiffy

 

PS: If I were the chief and you had forwarded your CV to me, on the basis of your website, I probably wouldn't call you. PM me and I'll be glad to tell you why, It's nothing malicious, just some friendly criticism. I mention via PM, to save any embarasment on your part, but if you don't mind, then we could go over it here so that others don't make the same mistake.

[Aaron-Hill07]

Another thankyou to those who have posted.. especially to Oovis, Ramdram & Smiffy...

 

I've actually been thinking about getting rid of my website for a while, and I think this has finally helped me to get rid of it. I think the problem with the website was that it was like I'm trying to be better than I am which isn't how it was supposed to come across but with hindsight, it did look that way even to me! So thanks for that, I'll be using my Stagejobspro profile instead of websites now as it's just easier as it's just experience, some files etc.

 

I'm also going to re-do my CV over the next few days and also make up a covering letter as a standard which I can add to and edit as I need.

 

Thanks for all the pointers so far,

[Ynot]

Well, Aaron, at least your last post above starts to show a more mature approach.

 

Yes, like SO many other web sites we see linked to here on the BR, it's not really a site that would inspire if I'm honest. I'm not sure, but I suspect most freelance techs maybe don't actually have a site with which to sell themselves - many however do have entries on other sites such as SJP, and the BECTU Crew Bus, or other industry pages. That's most likely where (if anywhere) potential employers will be looking for new blood if their normal contact base runs dry.

 

I agree that setting your sights on working in the West End is maybe too lofty a target at this stage - you MAY get lucky but I doubt it in the early stages. No problem having a goal, but just aim a little lower to begin with.

 

Also bear in mind that looking at working in a major theatre on large scale shows you're extremely unlikely to get anything much more than case-pushing or lantern rigging for a fair old while there. The 'sexier' jobs will go to the production team and filter down the food chain via the regulars before the cassies get a look-in!

 

I will never tire of using the most important word in our business.

 

EXPERIENCE.

 

Not always easy to get, and only valid if it's VALID experience, but looking at other theatres in your area to get more hands-on with them will help no end. And the more you do the more you realise you don't know, and can then aspire to work towards.

 

And don't be put off by the word 'Amateur' either. Because there are MANY societies around who have a higher work ethic and superior quality to SOME pro shows and for very good reasons. Some even have bigger relative budgets.

 

So, start where pretty much everyone WITH experience here started - on the bottom rung, work HARD and LISTEN and LEARN and hopefully some day you'll get to where you'd like to be.

[Aaron-Hill07]

Ynot - Completely agree with everything you've said there. I think what I seem to forget sometimes is that actually, I am well experienced FOR MY AGE but I am only 17 at the end of the day so yes there is a small chance of being able to get anywhere especially in the west-end at the moment especially in this economic climate where everyones struggling.

 

I'm investigating other ways of getting into it, even if it's just knowing how to when I do become 'of age'. I'll just keep going as I am for now, packing in the experience as much as I can and learning while I'm young and making those mistakes before getting right into the professional world of work.

 

I've tried with most of the local theatres, but at the moment they're packed out with people so can't take any other casuals on but I am on file with a few local venues and theatres for sick cover etc. Just haven't been called on yet, but hey.. one thing can turn into another so waiting for that call could be one of my best moves so far!

 

Also, you say I wouldn't be able to get anything more than case pushing.. but quite honestly I don't mind a bit of case pushing and working long hours, I'm an extremely hands-on person and I'm certainly not afraid of a nice bit of hard, honest work so anything like that is welcome with me.

 

Thanks again,

Aaron

[w/robe]

Aaron, at the risk of sounding like a patronising old git, your posts are getting better. It is as though you have taken on board what people are saying to you.

 

To ask an obvious question, WHY do you want to work in the West End? 10 months of doing 8 shows a week (over 20 years ago now) taught me that I never wanted to do that again. I know some people love it but, for me, it is the creative part of the process which is interesting and so I try to leave shows I have worked on after opening night. There are very few people in WE crews who go on to work in creative areas.

[Aaron-Hill07]

w/robe.. if I'm honest, I think the west end is one place I would like to experience first hand. I've heard a lot of mixed reviews, and being a theatre lover I'd like to get stuck in and experience it for myself. I'm yet to know if it'll get boring, or if I'll fall in love with it but I think it may be a decision that'll only become clear once I've done it.

 

I basically would just like to experience theatre on such a large scale, and would happily do so night in, night out!

[ImagineerTom]

If you're looking for theatre on a large scale then the west end isn't where you want to be looking - the majority of houses are running at under 1200 seats with only 4 over 2000 (Palladium, Theatre royal, Lyceum & Apollo) whereas most #1 regional receiving houses are 1500 seats. Every reason you've given so far for wanting to work in the west end is actually a reason why you should be looking at a regional house.

[David Ripley]

I worked in the West End over 20 years ago in a variety of roles and can only concur with w/drobe.

 

Doing 8 shows a week, month after month is totally dispiriting and not very creative. Previous to going to college I had an office job. When a bunch of my ex colleagues came to see a show I was on I explained to them that if they were bored with some paperwork they could at least nip off to the coffee machine. In the West End you are required to do exactly the same thing at exactly the same moment each night - the show or even lives could depend on it.

 

As a result the casual crew for running the shows were often of a low quality, after all you were just teaching someone to do a specific thing when the green light went on a cue light. They often had no interest in theatre or the show nor any comprehension of them and nor did they need to. As long as they did what was required that was fine.

 

I found mounting the productions was the interesting bit - running them was just dull. Nowadays with automation etc there are much smaller stage crews required, whereas on a show like the original 'Singin' In The Rain' at the Paladium there were loads of us all running around like made things. The only 'automation' was the Palladium's own ring revolve/lift and the band truck used for the title number.

 

Personally, based on my ownm experience I'd not reccomend it to anyone as a career, far better to be in a venue mounting productions or even having them tour through. You'll see a lot more ways of doing things than on one show which the producers hope will run for years

 

Apart from a lot of funny stories the only decent thing I got from working in the West End was my wife!

 

David

[paulears]

Very sensible comment. Work in a venue with different shows in all the time is so much more interesting. You need to keep in mind that these are, as has been said, jobs. You might find it strange, but at these kind of venues, there may be crew members who have never seen the end of the show - their hours might finish 30 minutes before curtain down, so they go. The crews spend as little time as they can on stage, coming out of the crew room in response to their calls, and going back when complete. Follow spots and desk ops might well be the only people who see the entire thing every night.

 

I suspect that for some, these kind of long terms shows also kill off people's enthusiasm very quickly, because they don't get exposed to new interesting stuff each week.

[Oovis]

As a result the casual crew for running the shows were often of a low quality, after all you were just teaching someone to do a specific thing when the green light went on a cue light. They often had no interest in theatre or the show nor any comprehension of them and nor did they need to. As long as they did what was required that was fine.

I have never encountered that attitude, 20 years ago nor now.

 

Full-time and casual staff do care about what we're doing otherwise why put up with doing it every night? Yes, it can get boring but we're all here to do our job to the best of our ability and with professionalism. That has always been the case in my experience, after all, as you said yourself,

 

the show or even lives could depend on it.

[David Ripley]

Ooovis, I said over 20 years ago - I left the West End in 1986.

 

I experienced fly crews in the pub between q's, a coked up Chief Lx climbing across stage on a portal in the middle of a show plus crews who could not get a q right after 20 shows. I worked in one theatre with a Master Carpenter who only employed crew on their looks, so we ended up with a poor girl with no experience and less strength trying to hand winch a large staircase with three cast on it at the top of a show and failing miserably.

 

Generally many of the show crews at that time were casual grunts - there was very little automation - actually none: I worked on one of the first shows with a totally 'automated' set and it wasn't very sophisticated to put it mildly. The crews were lifters, shifters, rope pullers and winch turners. Many of them had 'proper' jobs and did theatre work for the pin money and the craic, they had no real interest and the only training they often had was that sufficient to run the show

 

I hope it has changed but I still think that working a show in town is a soul destroying experience and not the best place for a newbie to get a load of experience that will help him in the future.Far better to be in a producing or receiving venue for that.

 

To reply to ImagineerTom it depends on how you define 'large scale' Is it the size of the house or the size/ambition of the production? Discuss!

 

David

[LukeDR]

Sorry to drag up an old(ish) thread...Just thought I'd let the OP know that I've been told a 16 year old on my course got a week internship at WWRY in London, don't think it was fun work...more button pusher than anything. And it's going to sound silly but you kinda need to think about how it'll impact your education if you're away for a week. I'm 17 and ASM on a new site specific West End production in a gallery down Charring Cross Road. Did a bit of research, and applied from my Performing Arts School's email address to make it obvious I was a student attached my CV and got invited to an interview the next week with the Director. I'm enjoying the process of the fun bits of propping, productionmeetings and helping put the technical bits of the show together. But the 8 week run I know is going to be a drag. I'm missing the opportunity to see the BRIT Awards whilst working for free and I'm going to be leaving the house at 7.30am for collage and then going on to the venue at 17:00 to prep for the performances, not returning home until midnight. With one night off a week and I'm even working Sundays...But it's a good credit and I'mworking for a very good director, so I know there needs to be sacrifices. Every opportunity is what YOU make it.

 

 

I guess I'm lucky, I've been able to build up quite a good CV as both my parents worked in theatre and although they have moved onto other things when I was growing up they'd get bits of work and I'd go along and help learnt and got work from there.... Certainly think the main thing I get hired for is my people skills and this is certainly something to make sure you have a lot of! An example being my uncle who is a (quite a good) Freelance LD, used to do a lot of work for one of the Artistic Directors for the 2012 Olympics, they used to have arguments about artistic differences and so has probably lost contracts due to this. His now struggling for work.

 

Oh and a quick note to people. I've done quite a bit of design work, but have no portfolio shots of it as I've been to busy focusing on my director and what we want my product to look like, that I've taken no pictures. When applying to where I go now - I had to go round scourging, begging, borrowing and stealing some and really regret not taking them myself....so DO TAKE THEM! Especially for design work or you'll regret it!!!

[Smiffy]

They used to have arguments about artistic differences and so has probably lost contracts due to this

 

I must have had thousands of artistic arguments, occasionally its almost as though they could have come to blows, and to the best of my knowledge, I haven't lost work, or not employed an associate on another project, because of an Artistic Differences argument. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I do find it hard to believe that anyone would lose out on work because they have a strong opinion.

 

It is of course important to remember that you should pick and choose your battles carefully however.

 

Cheers

 

Smiffy