Flame Machine

[bigclive]

There's a very good chance that the "flame oil" is liquified gas loaded with a colour producing metal salt like strontium chloride, copper chloride, sodium chloride etc. The Chinese seem to like using the word "oil" to describe many things that aren't.

 

But by all means feel free to let rip with a tin of that oil and see if it evaporates briskly or lingers in a puddle. I've not actually sourced any in the UK myself yet.

[dbuckley]

Nobody would be foolish enough to put a can of aerosol air freshener in one of these things would they?

'Course they wouldn't. 'Cos that would be awesome :)

 

What a lovely, simple piece of engineering.

 

E2A - 25 videos in the channel... that's my morning gone...

Edited January 11, 2011 by dbuckley

[ACIDMAN]

Regardless of chemical composistion, the point I was trying to get across is " use the manufacturers intended equipment not what you think MIGHT work"

 

In your own home...fine !

In a public display.....NO !!

[kerry davies]

I must be missing something here, will the guys using these canisters on shows please enlighten me?

 

Has anyone got a translation of a MSDS for this substance?

Anyone care to share their COSHH risk assessment?

Does it produce phosgene gas when burned as do some brake cleaning fluids? Like Wynns down under, David.

Does it contain the carcinogen benzene?

Which form of the dozens of substances called naphtha are you igniting?

What is the propellant in this stuff?

 

You must have found out the answers to all these questions before burning it in any enclosed public space, so please share your knowledge with me. I'm not surprised that Clive cannot find it in the UK, must be a reason?

 

Just like topic 40931 #34 I am not saying it is dangerous but I don't know and, I submit, neither do you.

[pyromonkey]

Surely if we all risk asses it, it will be fine! ;)

[MrBoomal]

Having recently bought one of these delightfully dodgy machines from China, I can explain why the original poster was just getting a small blue flame from the unit. He most likely used a standard butane lighter refill can. This fits and seals fine, but lacks the dip tube inside the can which is required to blow out enough gas volume to create a fireball or plume of flame. In his case the standard butane can just vented gas alone which was

of a low enough volume to mix with enough air to create a nice efficiently burning blue flame.

 

These machines use a DMX receiver board reminiscent of the type used in basic smoke machines, so there is no real safety system involved. However, they are very simple machines with basically a gas solenoid valve and ignition transformer wired in parallel so that whenever there's gas there's a spark to light it. I'd say that while the machines are not idiot proof by a long chalk, they are no worse than many bits of equipment used by the professional FX companies.

 

Back to the gas. Nobody would be foolish enough to put a can of aerosol air freshener in one of these things would they?

 

 

Oh wait! It appears I've done it and videoed the results.....

 

Next up WD40. But I won't be doing that indoors!

 

But does it smell nice ?

[ACIDMAN]

This may throw a little light on the subject.......http://www.confettimagic.com/images/colour-flames-with-units.jpg

Our coloured flame projector system uses a unique combination of liquid fuel and compressed air to produce vivid coloured jets of fire. Each head can produce red, green, blue or yellow flames and the dedicated controller enables the programming of complex chases and colour changes.

 

The system utilises a UV flame sensor to monitor the pilot status, disabling the unit should the pilot light be extinguished.

 

 

 

 

The use of air instead of propane makes them viable in situations where flammable gasses may be an issue. For example, we have even used them underground in caves! The flames are also smokeless making them suitable for use in smaller venues and for longer durations where an accumulation of smoke would be undesirable.

[bigclive]

So it doesn't use gas but it monitors the pilot light with a UV sensor? Doesn't that suggest a gas powered pilot flame?

 

Hopefully it's not oil canisters pressurised internally with air, 'cos canned air and fuel in the right ratio is a bomb if there's flashback into the can. With the propane or butane cans there should be little to no oxygen present in the can. I'm not sure I know of any instances where anyone has had a can of air freshener detonate forcibly in their hand while spraying it too close to candles or cookers.

 

If it was a venturi system that drew oil up into a jet of air then that would be OK.

 

I think the LeMaitre coloured flame projectors use a glow plug to light the fuel. Their MSDS lists the fuel cans contents as propane 25-50%, butane 25-50% and isobutane 25-50%. Their coloured cans seem to use alcohol as a carrier for the flame colourant and probably inject a small quantity into the primary fuel.

 

BUT ANYWAY! Nice and simple isn't it? Probably frowned upon for use in a public area, but ideal for tech-dudes and their tech-buddies. And I think I can safely say that my can of air freshener is a lot cheaper and more readily available than even the highest profile brands of coloured flame fuel, and most likely a lot less toxic than a cigarette. It's also somewhat handier than a length of gas hose attached to a large tank of propane.

[ladyjayne]

LPG version anyone? it will not catch on fire as it is a fire machine :blink: We had a good giggle over this product so far keep it coming.

[bigclive]

One advantage of the LPG version with an external tank is that you could use an adjustable regulator to control the flame height. I didn't see a local accumulator in the unit, so it wouldn't perhaps have the same fireball spitting potential as some units. Good for jets of flame though.

 

I have seen externally run gas hose get ruptured and ignite though....

[Andrew C]

We've been here before. From memory the burning of brake cleaner was reported to produce carcinogens. Can anyone remember/find the thread/confirm?

[Simon Lewis]

We've been here before. From memory the burning of brake cleaner was reported to produce carcinogens. Can anyone remember/find the thread/confirm?

 

Can't remember the thread, but petroleum ether/spirit / naptha / brake cleaner ( probably slightly different but have similar components) often contains ~ 0.5% benzene.

However, incomplete combustion of most higher molecular weight organics will create pyrolysis products, including soot with polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. These are likely to be mutagenic and probably carcinogenic to humans. However, the same coudl be said of many bonfires...

 

Using the flame machines outdoors might be a be a good move...

[kerry davies]

Andrew, #9 in this topic gives the link and #19 some of the hazards including benzene.

 

Simon, quite right that all combustion produces toxic byproducts but if you google benzene law you will find hundreds of US lawyers who specialise in compensation work. The benzene leukemia law blog is quite interesting as well.

 

I'm not saying using these things is unsafe, just someone please prove the use is safe. If you stick to the letter of the law you need a COSHH RA to use them and nobody yet has come up with one. They look unstable, I wouldn't burn petrol indoors and people just do not know what is in these canisters from China.

 

When I read here that brake cleaner is good to use and I then see "phosgene gas may be formed on combustion" on a brake cleaner MSDS I become somewhat over-cautious.

[Andrew C]

Andrew, #9 in this topic gives the link and #19 some of the hazards including benzene.

It may even have been this thread that I was referring too. I hadn't spotted that it was an old one that I was replying to. All down to the loss of "new post awareness" with the forum upgrade.

[dirkenstein]

I've done a little MSDS research.

 

Brake cleaner isn't just brake cleaner. The chlorinated formulations (with carbon tetrachloride, 1,1,1-trichloroethane or similar compounds), are really dangerous if ignited or heated above decomposition temperature, due to the possible generation of phosgene and any number of dangerous chlorine compounds(dioxin, anyone?).

 

I think these are now very rare or banned in Europe and the US. The aerosol cans may still carry the relevant warnings as a public safety measure (so people don't go about assuming old cans of brake cleaner are also safe to spray onto hot surfaces). Not that the new stuff is safe to spray on hot surfaces either- the flashpoint is a rewardingly low -97C and the ignition temperature a mere 200C.

 

The modern formulations tend to contain only naphtha, IPA and acetone, with either carbon dioxide or butane propellant. The ones with butane propellant ought to be wonderfully flammable.

 

Note that they usually use 'light hydrotreated naphtha', CAS 64742-49-0 with a maximum boiling point of around 60C.

This should be almost entirely benzene-free (concentrations for commercial products seem to indicate benzene content as '< 1ppm') given that benzene boils at 80C. Any product with appreciable benzene content needs to be labeled as 'poisonous' rather than merely 'irritant' and would almost certainly not be legal as an aerosol formulation for purchase by the general public.

 

This one seems to tick all the boxes for a product to experiment with in cheap Chinese flame machines without running risks of anything more serious than third-degree burns....

 

http://www.rapidonline.com/1/1/4716-brake-cleaner.html

 

You may be rather crispy, but you probably won't have cancer, or melt your lungs with WWI poison gases.

 

BTW general disclaimer. I am not responsible for the state of your eyebrows or the number of skin grafts you may require after trying this out. In fact, I strongly advocate you don't try this at all, or find a suitably risky displacement activity like hang-gliding or joining the armed forces instead.