Compromise

[HolyPhish]

I'm not starting this thread because I need help with a quote, I'm starting it to see what peoples opinions are. Please state your opinions and why you hold it.

 

 

If you're doing an event with a small budget and you are unable to take any of your own equipment, what part of the system would you compromise on?

 

ie: Cheaper speakers? Cheap desk? budget microphones?

 

or would you just drop the level of everything so it's all about the same quality?

 

 

This is purely intellectual, I personally hate working with cheap desks, a beaten up rig can be made doubly worse by the fact I get frustrated with a cheap (behringer) desk!

 

any thoughts?

[Simon Lewis]

The mics and speakers have a much greater effect on overall sound quality.

Amps and mixers can be "entry level" and still provide a workable sound system.

 

Simon

[Bobbsy]

I'm in total agreement with Simon.

 

The transducers at either end of the system have a far larger effect on the sound than the electronics in the middle.

 

Bob

[paulears]

I'd agree, and perhaps if pushed, concentrate my effort on the loudspeakers. Oddly, based on past posts - a component frequently bought unheard and mainly on price. I've come to the conclusion that over the past few years, the number of horrible microphones is dwindling, and the starting point is getting better and better, so with a little eq, even budget mics can do the job at a fraction of the cost of traditional expensive ones. Speaker cabinet design seems to bet getting better too - the number of better ones is creeping up too.

[dbuckley]

I am of the opinion that mics are the thing to get right - no amount of electronics and speakers will relace what you didn't pick up right in the first place...

[Dmills]

Speakers are the critical one for me, mics you can upgrade piecemeal far more easily then you can upgrade a speaker array on ebox at a time.

So I would compromise on the electronics, then the mics if I really had to, transducers are where the action is.

 

Finally, I would note that you can hire NICE mics for the few money channels in a typical gig really quite cheaply.

 

Regards, Dan.

[Jivemaster]

I'd look at the available options, see what performance must be traded off to get within budget then decide if I really wanted to do the gig at all.

 

I don't mind hard work, I DON'T want a bad gig sticking to my reputation.

[Solstace]

For hires, my spend priority order tends to be:

 

Most important

 

Speakers - they'll be converting the sound I mix back into the sound people hear after all - whatever is driving them. More accuracy and durability here wins over nicer kit elsewhere every time.

System processing - whether required by the speaker design or not. EQ/Limiting/Delay is always helpful, as are graphics for monitors. Parametric EQ's are nice to have on any amplifier sends, but graphics will do if not.

Amplifiers - Get the true power output and reliability right and everything else pretty much comes out in the wash.

Desk - EQ quality/flexibility, and having enough inputs and outputs are top priorities. For live work I'd rather a better desk than better mics. VCA's make life easier, and better-sounding mic pre's are always helpful.

Mics - Most reputable companies generally don't stock anything truly shocking. At the extreme budget end, don't expect radio, and give me enough '58's for the singers and '57's for everything else. It'll work.

Outboard - see more below.

 

Least important

 

 

Obviously this assumes that the necessities of signal and power cabling are covered first. No point even thinking about what gear you'll use if you can't get the electrons to flow where you'll need them.

 

"Outboard" such as compressors/reverb/effects etc I've found is nice to have but really not necessary in the majority of gigs I do. Even where riders have specified that certain units MUST be specified and wired in with specific settings, I've been able to negotiate working without them (well in advance) and still have the artists happy with their sound. The same has applied where specific very high-end amp/speaker setups have been specified.

 

One further tip: Choose a suitable brand and "family" of desk that you like the sound of, and that gives you the EQ flexibility and action that "feels" right to you. For example, for a good couple of years I used pretty much nothing but A&H ML/GL consoles. I didn't need a 48-channel ML4000 for every gig, so for many I scaled back to a 24 or 32-channel GL instead to spend more on other things. I found the "family sound" of these consoles comparable enough even across the different model generations, so that gave me a good psychological and practical grounding point to build everything else on - including assessing different kit options elsewhere in the system.

 

[anecdotal mode]

 

All too often I'm using kit that I ordinarily wouldn't choose to specify for a job - for many of my jobs it's a case of "what do we have installed?" or "what's left in the spares cupboard today, that still works?" rather than "what would/should I use for this?". I like to think I can get around most of these situations quite happily, because if it's kit I know then I can work to its strengths and to some extent I can mask or work around the known (or found) weaknesses.

 

As an example, just a couple of days ago I ended up having to run an unexpected concert-level rock/soul/r'n'b gig (I'd been told to expect "light jazz!) using an elderly but rather familiar Bose 302/402/802 install, with an amplifier down so ended up running more boxes in parallel than I'd have liked. This could have been a nightmare under any circumstances - but in the end it was a very happy gig because I knew the install like the back of my hand and knew what it was capable of, even in its slightly elderly and hobbled state. Some communication with regards to the limitations of our monitors with the musicians meant that expectations were in fact exceeded.

[/anecdotal mode]

[kerry davies]

Personal choice would be to compromise on anything except the speakers. Just change out those of a cheapo Hi-Fi to decent ones to hear the difference. Speakers are always going to be the least efficient, most audibly critical element in any system. Well-designed cabs can overcome some weaknesses in cheaper drivers but good drivers in good cabs is the ideal.

 

Mixing desks come next in importance because they arrange and form the sound to the subjective ear.

As Paul says, mics have become so good, up to a point, that entry level "industry standard" ones are pretty much of equal quality, depends on subjective preference again.

For me the least important thing is the power amp because I can't hear the difference between 0.01% THD an 0.1%. As long as it works as it should and is matched to the speakers then that will do. Good quality, well maintained cabling is much more crucial for me.

 

Ask anyone for their favourite "PA system" and they will always answer with the name of a speaker, D&B, Funktion One, L'Acoustics, Clare Bros, not the make of amp. The next preference one hears is the desk, Midas, Digico etc. You will hear studio engineers getting emotional about a variety of microphones but PA guys mostly choose a range then stick to it. (See Solstace above)

 

As for frustration I try to listen before anything because it doesn't seem to matter to the audience if I hate the desk, amps, mics or anything .... except the noise boxes. Personal preferences come behind the budget anyway, I could always spend a fortune but they won't ever let me!

[Wilflet]

or would you just drop the level of everything so it's all about the same quality?

 

I think theres got to be a bit of that.

Agreed the stacks (with an appropriate amps/crossover) are the most important.

But I dont see the point in having say a heritage or xl4 if all the sweetness and warmth of the very expensive preamps is going to be drowned out by hiss from the cheapest gates/comps/graphs/ etc. for some gigs (obviously limited by channel count etc) Im more than happy with say a mixwizard (A&H are doing well out of this thread arnt they?) if it means the rest of the system is also at a ok level rather than some good parts and some awful parts. only as strong as the weakest link and all that.

 

But as as Dmills said, a few mics is nothing. I tend to carry vocal and kick mics to everything and then if the house only has a few 57s, a battered beyond recognition 58 and one unbranded SDC then its not a problem.

[Alec]

Speakers for me too!

 

A Behringer desk may not be fantastic, but it will still do the job. All but the very nastiest mics will do a reasonable job. Outboard varies more, but there are plenty of cheapy options that will get you by.

 

But, if you've got cruddy speakers, it's far more likely to sound nasty, and be feedback city.

 

I also held this view back in the 80s for hi-fi when the official opinion was that the source was always the most important component, followed by the amps, then finally the speakers. But how far that market's change now, where it's all about nasty iPod docking stations with no quality at all!

[Ben Lawrance]

I'm going to disagree here guys.

 

I think the part of the chain that really matters is the way the sound enters the system in the first place. Mic technique. I keep seeing bands that look like they've been mic'd by Stevie Wonder, and then try and work out why it doesn't sound any good.

 

Having great gear on a job is all very well and good, but unless the source is captured correctly, no amount of EQ/Gate/Comp/FX etc will help.

 

Just my opinion................

[john deans]

I suppose it depends where you are starting from. In days past (very past) I got workable results from some very horible pub, club adnd church PA's by carrying some SM58's and a few other of my own mics around, these days most venues seem to have reasomable mics 57's 58's ect are failly common athough the state of some is rather sad.

The next major infulence would certainly be the speakers although these are more difficlut to fix if breifcasing a gig, If you are hiring or buliding a PA then I would start with the speakers, amps and processing providing they are not awfull, or seriously underwpoerd have a minor effect in the sound, next would be mics and/ or desk depending of future spend as mics can often be bought graually wheras buying a mew desk is seen as a major change, therefore major expense, then finally effects. The most impotant thing is as others have said is to ballance the system quality it is no good spending all your budget on one part and compromising everthing else also carefully analise the requirment for the PA as to overall sound level reqired, area to be coverd ect.

Somtimes compromises or changes made in the original specification can sort out the budget driven problems such as pursauding the clients to remove some extras form the origial requirement.

EDIT:

Good engineering I have heard awfull results from good sytems and good results from poor systems the guy at the controls can make all the difference

[Alec]

I'm going to disagree here guys.

 

I think the part of the chain that really matters is the way the sound enters the system in the first place. Mic technique. I keep seeing bands that look like they've been mic'd by Stevie Wonder, and then try and work out why it doesn't sound any good.

 

Although, going back to the OP's question of where would you compromise on the kit with limited budget, all the placement/technique problems can be resolved quickly and at no cost by any decent engineer.

[Ben Lawrance]

Ha! I knew I forgot something.....................

 

 

They way I see it, whatever goes into an amplifier, comes out of the amplifeir, just louder, so this area isn't too important (concentrating on low budget gigs for a minute)

 

To all intense and purposes, a speaker will reproduce what you feed it.

 

So surely the most important thing is to get your mic --->desk--->processing in good shape before you make it louder?

 

In conclusion, I would compromise on the speakers and amps.

 

As has been said. I've heard D&B/Turbo/F1 etc sound horrid, and yet I've heard Berry/Alto/Phonic etc sound great.