Lighting Students

[Nick512]

Im currently working on a small project.. more a labour of love with a group of the very talented individuals, The show will play in the west end only for a week and a such we are putting this together on a very tight budget.

 

Im looking for a number of Students studying lighting design in the london area who would be interested in some work experience and getting involved in the build and strike of the show. You would be working under one of my crew chiefs who is very experienced with theatre installs and has headed the build team for a number of prominent west end shows as well as touring shows all over the world. I am also looking for an assistant lighting director to work directly with me for the build, shows and strike day.

 

I hope that this opportunity would provide the right people with an invaluable learning opportunity. Please have a look at my online Resume for details of my past projects and design work. I have had some great experiences offering student tours and work experience on some of my other shows recently and have had great feedback, but this is the first time I have had the opportunity to be able to offer it in the UK.

 

The lighting rig is quite small at around 40 Movers and 40 Generics, but I have some quite demanding time limits to work with.

 

There are a couple of conditions you must be over 18 (Governed by my Insurance) and I am ideally looking for at least 1 female due to the nature of the show. (only applies to any backstage work during the shows) You must be able to get yourself to the west end easily each day and be able to work Friday 19th Feb to Monday 22nd Feb for the build and Sunday 28th for the Strike and all evenings in between for the show days.

 

I also know that the Stage Management department would love to find a couple of students to help with set and props for the build.

 

Please send me your information (PM) if you are interested along with details of any experience you may have and why you think you would be good for the project.

 

Thanks I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Nick

[Nick512]

Thanks for the replies.. I am still looking for an assistant director and female lighting student... if your interested PM me.

[Nick512]

Well I am not normally one for this but I actually feel quite strongly about it and would love to get other peoples opinions who are working full time in the industry.

 

From the post below and from a few select emails out to Colleges and Universities offering the same opportunity, I kept coming upon the same response from students. "We need to be paid for the work and are not interested In working for free" Now normally I am well known for making sure that all my crew are compensated properly for all their work but in this situation I simply did not have any money but instead was offering the opportunity to work with some of the best and most current names in the business.

 

Had I been a student I would have snapped up the opportunity instantly. I remember when I first started I spent at least 2 - 3 years working for Nothing or enough money to buy a sandwich and a bus fair home.. in those years I would do anything my aim was to see as many different shows and LD's work so that I could learn from it all. I was at shows 7 nights a week and often quizzing the LD on how they did certain things.. why they did the patch like that etc... I believe it was in those years that I developed my abilities and skills far more than anytime after..

 

I am still shocked by some of the responses I got, maybe its a change in the times but still I have always found that ability will only get you so far.. Attitude will get you the rest of the way. The teams I build for shows are all based on people I like working with and spending time with.. and would never hire anyone with the you get what you pay for attitude!

 

When we went into this project the whole creative team decided it was something that we would like to do, we would put a small team of very experienced crew into key positions and have enough volunteers from the industry to be able to run the show but then to flesh it out with students who could learn from everyone and we all agreed to spend time with them answering questions and showing them things we had learnt.

 

So it wasn't all bad new.. I did get a group of students we had 3 LX and 4 Stage and 3 wardrobe. They were all wonderful each one of them commented that they had learnt more in 10 days than months at college, which was great and exactly what we had hoped for. In fact the show will run again shortly and we have now hired them all to be part of the crew.

 

I guess I just wanted to know the general feeling about getting work experience for free these days..? what are your thoughts?

[spartacus]

Personally, I would jump at any chance to be involved in anything involving lighting. Obviously, this doesn't meant that I would drop everything and run, as I do have a lot of things on, but would endeavor my hardest to do so. Yes, I'm still young and learning and would probably not want to 'volunteer' for the rest of my life. However, I find that this industry is something which you really need experience in to make it successful for you. I would have applied, however, I unfortunately (from the theater/event perspective at least, not necessarily the weather ;) ) I live in Australia and opportunities are very hard to come by.

 

If anyone does want my help, feel free to ask, I live in Perth.

 

My 2c.

 

Alex

[Grum]

Forget about being a student, I'd have bitten your arm off for a chance like that noe were it not for having to pay the bills (and having only just gotten back from BDO in Australia (Alex next time I'll drop you a line before I go)).

 

Like you, when I was a student I worked on every show I could and virtually always for free. I understand that there are a lot of people out there that will take advantage of you if you're prepared to work for free but people often seem to forget that they are getting something out of it themselves. OK I got taken for a ride a few times too but I also formed life long friendships with people I still work for/with today. The chance to learn from sombody who is doing the job you want to do is invaluable.

 

To be honest, I didn't see your original post, if I had I would have seriously considered replying. I love working with other LD's who are prepared to take the time to share thoughts and discuss ideas and methods of working. I know that others will say that it devalues the labour or that it puts professionals out of work and I can see that argument as well. But I really do feel that there is a MASSIVE difference between the "proffit share" adverts you so regularly see on Stage Jobs Pro which are looking for people that can already do the job and are prepared to work independently for free and your post which clearly states that you're expecting to almost teach people what it's like in a real world situation.

[tommulliner]

Personally, I would jump at any chance to be involved in anything involving lighting. Obviously, this doesn't meant that I would drop everything and run,

 

I totally agree with this, It was a huge shame that I don't live near London or I would have jumped at the opportunity. I can understand why some students would want some kind of gain (financially) from the project, but in this industry, so I have been told, the more work and just gerneral experiance you can get, the better!

 

I have been recently aproched from the local collage putting on a show to do lighting, and they cant pay anything, but I am jumping for it mainly for the experiance. What may not benifit you now may well benifit you in the future is what I think anyway...

[niclights]

I totally agree. I think expecting pay for experience in this industry demonstrates the wrong attitude. Like you (and I'm sure the vast majority of others here) I worked for a few years for free. I was just delighted that I was given the chance and never even considered being paid for it at the time.

 

Having said that I do constantly get requests for experience and none ever expect payment, so perhaps what you saw was just the result of actually advertising the opportunity.

[Pattern123]

I'd have to say I am heartened by the responses you are getting, and TBH I am surprised and saddened you aren't getting into big trouble with our Unions and professional associations for even advertising like this. Everyone wants something for nothing, but to hear of a production which is going into the west end for a week asking for free crew, no - sorry, there are national agreements in place with fixed fees and minimum wages, which are supposed to stop just this type of thing. I certainly did lots of work for very little pay when a student, and on occasion I ended up not getting paid when I was supposed to be, but I never did work for free intentionally, and never will.

[mr_towers]

I think the "I need to be paid attitude" can be understandable. Certainly we at the RSAMD get bombarded with emails offering us "amazing experiences" with "big names" etc. Unfortunately these usually end up being loading a transit for some new company who are, well, nobody. In these cases, where the students are either learning or being taught nothing and just being used as free labour I don't think it's unreasonable.

 

I've done one free gig since I ended up here, which was working with some great people (and a famous crazy Russian contemporary performance group). I really enjoyed it, got expenses covered, got to know people. All on a weekend where I wasn't really doing anything anyway. This was good, but it seems to be a rare thing.

 

Nick, I'm glad your guys had a good time. It's nice to hear when these things go well. But I think you're right there has been a clear shift in the way these placements/volunteer things work - and not for the better.

[musht]

Could almost merge this thread with one about `profit share` jobs on Stage Pro or whatever site...

 

Absolutely no disrespect intended to yourself Nick, you are obviously the genuine article, a professional lighting designer at the very top of your business offering an opportunity.

 

Genuine opportunities are very, very rare.

 

Freeloading theatrical producers,night club owners, club night runners, festival promoters, student bands, bands on the way up and the way down, architects, artists, plain fantasists and yah yahs spending Daddies dosh are unfortunately very common.

 

Difficult at times to sort out from which group anyone offering an `opportunity` might actually belong.

 

It is also the only BUSINESS where people used to be commonly expected to do hard physical labour for free, even Nurses , also very much a calling, get paid during training.

 

Haven`t heard of anyone working for 6 months on building site for free to learn how to be a brickie.

 

Really think the attitude that working for free is the norm needs to be so last century.

 

An opportunity of working with a top name lighting designer in exchange for pushing cases may be seen as fair exchange.

 

An `opportunity` to light some experimental theatre on profit share may be no opportunity at all, only got so many fingers to get burnt.

[TheLightsTech]

I am a university student-- I often did gigs for free up until this year. Now I am trying to get paid something (how much depending on what type of show) on most shows... to cover my costs on doing the show (personal kit, transportation, food). However, had this been here, I would have JUMPED at the opportunity. There's a BIG difference between someone offering an opportunity... and someone wanting free labor because they can't or won't hire a crew. Nick certainly is in the first category. I do understand how this can get out of control.-- I'm currently having issues with a group that seems to keep "forgetting" to pay me and "losing" paperwork. However Nick certainly seemed to have good intentions with this... and the students benefited.

[Nick512]

Hey guys thanks for the replies it makes me feel much better to know that other people out there share the same ideas as me, when it comes to learning this trade and I hope that I get the opportunities to share this with more people in the future.

 

I'd have to say I am heartened by the responses you are getting, and TBH I am surprised and saddened you aren't getting into big trouble with our Unions and professional associations for even advertising like this. Everyone wants something for nothing, but to hear of a production which is going into the west end for a week asking for free crew, no - sorry, there are national agreements in place with fixed fees and minimum wages, which are supposed to stop just this type of thing. I certainly did lots of work for very little pay when a student, and on occasion I ended up not getting paid when I was supposed to be, but I never did work for free intentionally, and never will.

 

I think you need to re-read my original posts. at no time did I need free crew, I already had enough professional crew booked on this job to make it happen, I simply had the opportunity to provide students who wanted to learn the opportunity to be involved and feel part of a proper production. They got to learn from myself and from the guys I had hired who together had over 40 years of west end experience. We treated them as a full part of the crew but each was shadowed by one of my guys who would give advice and answer questions about tasks they had to do. I like the opportunity to give back, a lot of big name LD's helped me when I was starting and I think its very important that people coming into the industry are given the opportunity to shine.. Im finding it harder and harder to find really good crew these days and our week of shows really inspired me to do more like this and we found some really good people who because of there commitment and willingness to work I have hired for the rest of the year (all at wages in line with equity)

 

One final point.. I still do shows for free and always will. If I will learn from it or it will help builds a useful relationship then for me its worth it. Yes as everyone says you do get ######ed over by doing this and I have been many times 2 recent examples cost me tens of thousands of pounds in lost earnings. but I have found that there are still times when its right and have built many many strong relationships because of my attitude and those of the people I put in my team.

[claire.ilett]

As a student, I would have jumped at the opportunity to do something like this. As people have already mentioned, there is a clear difference between a genuine educational opportunity, and someone just trying to take advantage. My main interest is in stage management, but I have recently done my first lighting design, and very much enjoyed it and found it interesting. If any opportunities like this arise in future, I will definitely be making my interest known.

[iamchristuffin]

Had I seen this topic when you first posted it, I would have been writing the email before I'd finished reading!

 

On the one hand, even though Lighting is not the area I invisage myself ending up, you can learn something from everything, and it sounds like it was an amazing opportunity.

 

On the other, I have been used for free labour in the past, to the point where I was asked to work for companies (for quite a while, I hasten to add) until I mentioned the possibility of expenses (petrol/a train fare type expenses), and then I didn't hear from them again. It got to the stage where I wasn't learning anything, and I felt that for two days of 12-16 hour work busy all the time, as well as a 170-mile commute before and after, I should have received more than a thanks and a meal voucher.

 

2p!

Chris

[kahuna31]

I really wish I'd seen this sooner, I consider any opportunity to learn a good one! plus I'm female and really enjoy lighting! Its nice to see someone willing to give time and effort into helping someone else gain the opportunity of experience, its quite rare in my area and wouldn't have minded travelling at all! if you do any thing like this again please post, hopefully more people would consider the experience over financial benefit more seriously, thanks for taking the time any way!