Lighting Students

[w/robe]

I think you need to re-read my original posts. at no time did I need free crew,

You may not have said it but it was the impression I got from your post

I already had enough professional crew booked on this job to make it happen, I simply had the opportunity to provide students who wanted to learn the opportunity to be involved and feel part of a proper production. They got to learn from myself and from the guys I had hired who together had over 40 years of west end experience. We treated them as a full part of the crew but each was shadowed by one of my guys who would give advice and answer questions about tasks they had to do.

It's great that you had a full professional crew but what you said was

You would be working under one of my crew chiefs

that sounded to me like you had 1 paid person to supervise lots of students.

 

I also think that trying to find students 2 weeks before you require them is always going to be difficult, what kind of course are they on if it is not planned what they will be doing more than 2 weeks in advance.

 

One final point.. I still do shows for free and always will.

I don't and never will. I still learn things on all the jobs I do but selling my skills and knowledge is how I pay my bills and put shoes on my kids feet it is not a hobby. I've taken work that I new would be hell from beginning to end because they pay, this is the reality for most people.

 

Try telling a builder the you have a really interesting extension that you want building for free.....

[Pattern123]

One final point.. I still do shows for free and always will.

I don't and never will. I still learn things on all the jobs I do but selling my skills and knowledge is how I pay my bills and put shoes on my kids feet it is not a hobby. I've taken work that I new would be hell from beginning to end because they pay, this is the reality for most people.

 

I agree completely, but still, it must be nice to live in a world where you are so comfortably off that you can afford to work for free - sadly for most of us struggling from one month, or week, to the next just to exist that's just fantasy land.

[Guest lightnix]

I am still shocked by some of the responses I got… and would never hire anyone with the you get what you pay for attitude!

In which case it may be you who’s losing out, by cutting yourself off from some of the best crew you’ll never get to meet - all for the sake of a few quid. Pity.

 

 

I think you need to re-read my original posts. at no time did I need free crew,

You may not have said it but it was the impression I got from your post

That’s the impression I got, too. I think it was the bit that said…

 

…we would put a small team of very experienced crew into key positions and have enough volunteers from the industry to be able to run the show but then to flesh it out with students ...

…which created it for me.

 

 

That said, I’m glad to hear you got the crew you needed, Nick. I’m glad that they felt some benefit from the exercise and that it will result in some paid work for them in the near future.

 

You might be surprised to read that I actually do have some respect for what you’re trying to do and would like to see it continue. It’s just that I think the model you’re using is flawed, always was and is wholly inappropriate for our times. I hope that what I’m about to say will encourage you to see things a little differently.

 

I still believe that unpaid gigs actually take opportunity away from people, especially those who have the least of it - people from poorer backgrounds, who can't afford to work for free - and that jobs like this prevent opportunities from being awarded on merit - to those who genuinely show the most promise.

 

Not everyone comes from a nice, comfy, middle class background and has the Bank of Mummy and Daddy to fund their early career moves.

 

I think it’s utterly wrong to equate the ability to work for free with the “right attitude” and that this in itself, is a very negative attitude, which may be deeply hurtful to those who are disadvantaged by it.

 

Why should it fall to those at the bottom of the ladder and need the most support, to invest in the future? Shouldn’t the industry put it’s hands in its pockets and take a financially more proactive stance in creating of the kind of skilled workforce it needs, in order to advance live ents through the 21st Century?

 

I’m fed up with the idea that you have to live on the edge of poverty, to be true to your craft; that you should have to prove yourself through suffering and fall over backwards with gratitude, anytime someone asks you to work on their show. I argue that we need more people with the self-confidence to place a material value on what they produce for a living, and fewer unambitious self-haters, who see showbusiness as a way to cocoon themselves from the slings and arrows of the Real World, so they can float along in their own little luvvie reality bubble, which they expect everyone else to pay for.

 

Yes, things have changed - certainly since I was at college, almost thirty years ago. For one thing, students don’t get grants to spend any more, they get loans which have to be repaid. Each and every graduate in the UK starts their working life with a five figure debt to pay off. Some of them find that their shiny new degree doesn’t automatically qualify them for the work the want to do and that further study is required - at considerable, additional expense.

 

There have also been calls from management over the last 8-10 years, for crew to be more businesslike in their approach to work and stop treating the whole thing like a game. This is something I’m all for; but the reverse side of the coin, is that people are going to expect to be at least recompensed, if not actually rewarded for their labours - and why shouldn’t they be?

 

As I’ve said before: I fully agree, that you can’t expect to earn top dollar when you’re still a student or fresh out of college, but I don’t see why you shouldn’t be paid the National Minimum Wage, especially as it’s been shown by BECTU, to be a legal requirement - one which you, Nick, appear to have ignored, by co-opting these people onto your production - no matter how noble your intentions were.

 

And if it turns out that they were illegally employed, can you really be sure that they would have been covered by your insurance, had the unthinkable happened?

 

Like I said: I admire what you’re doing up to a point; but I think you need to take a look at the way you’re doing it.

 

€0.02

[Jerome]

It's robbery unless it does actually benefit the student.

[TheLightsTech]

Wow... someone made a comment in another thread about the Americans having it right... well we do. Internships that are amazing, "Internships" at dumps that want free labor, and everything in between gets advertised... and people have the right to decide what they want to do. Why is half the BR community tearing into Nick for trying to do something good? I don't know Nick, but I do know other top level LDs, and they aren't about to use a bunch of students and one guy supervising it because their reputation is on the line each and every show they do. I really doubt that Nick would have put something together that didn't have the professional crew needed to ensure the show happens then post about it on the UK's biggest technical theatre forum. The guys I know/ work with you don't come anywhere NEAR doing anything important for a show without complete supervision until you have more than proved yourself.

 

Can we please stop insulting him... or are you going to take away valuable opportunities for students because of this silliness?

[LXbydesign]

Right, well I work as a pro LD - mostly for corporate / event work - and I also teach BTEC Theatre production at an academy in London. Because of this, when possible and/or appropriate , I always try and take one or two of the students with me to the odd job.

 

Before hand, I would always check with the production company or client if its ok and 9/10 times, its fine.

 

Im not taking them to be an extra pair of hands wheeling around flight cases or doing tedious jobs like taping down cables or even doing tea runs. Their brief is to shadow me or sound / LX crew , stage guys etc - to watch and observe what goes on, to help with tasks maybe and at at convenient moments, to ask questions and so on. They should also be taking notes and taking photos.

 

This helps them enormously with their study. They can learn more in a day 'on the job' than they could doing 6 lessons in a theatre. While on site, they were fed and watered and needed for nothing. I also had advised them to bring a few nibbles of their own for peckish moments inbetween lunch and tea breaks

 

The students are well mannered , respectfull, get-on well with the pro crew and take part in the banter etc!! One of them already has been asked to help as a general crew member for a couple of jobs in their summer holidays and I will be using the 2 students who show more interest in lighting to come along with me on a couple of jobs: paid crew as follow-spot ops. (give the truck drivers some time off! hehe)

 

In this day and age mostly because of the cost of everything - travel etc, I dont think its appropriate to expect anyone to work for free - regardless of your intentions. At least an offer of food / drinks, some or all of travel expenses should be paid.

 

If I had been a student and seen Nicks post - I truely would of been banging on his front door to let me take part- and showed my commitment, and hard work to the production BUT would of at least made sure 'the above' was provided!!

 

I dont think Nick went about it the wrong way at all. Its a pity there arnt more opportunities for young people to get Ist hand experience in a totally real / live situation .

[Nick512]

Wow.. Thanks for the responses.. points taken.

 

I am still shocked by some of the responses I got… and would never hire anyone with the you get what you pay for attitude!

In which case it may be you who’s losing out, by cutting yourself off from some of the best crew you’ll never get to meet - all for the sake of a few quid. Pity.

 

I already have an amazing crew full of people exactly like I described theres about 100 from all over the world who I pretty much keep in employment all year round, please feel free ask any of them if they think Im saving a few quid when they are hired.. Its pretty well known that my crew is the most expensive in the business, but thats because they are in my opinion the best. I did say I would never hire someone with the "your get what you pay for attitude" which is totally true.. I didn't say I wouldn't pay what I thought they were worth which can sometimes be much much more than they ever thought to ask for themselves. when was the last time you were offered $10,000 for a couple of weeks work?? my best guys easily get that plus sitting up the front for long haul flights, don't worry if I think your worth looking after I will make sure you are.

 

The majority of my show are ridiculously hard work and I couldn't do them to my exceptional standard without my guys around me. At work I ask an amazing amount from them, I do know that. I need them to be able to deliver and they do time after time with no complaining, they are worth there weight in gold and I would do anything for them. So please do not tell me that I am trying to save a few quid here and there or ill never meet the best people..

 

I simply had the opportunity to be able to give something back to people who want to learn about real show situations and Im glad I did and would do it again tomorrow. I actually learnt from them too...!!!

 

As for insurance, please don't worry yourself about that I am more than covered.

 

Right, well I work as a pro LD - mostly for corporate / event work - and I also teach BTEC Theatre production at an academy in London. Because of this, when possible and/or appropriate , I always try and take one or two of the students with me to the odd job.

 

Im not taking them to be an extra pair of hands wheeling around flight cases or doing tedious jobs like taping down cables or even doing tea runs. Their brief is to shadow me or sound / LX crew , stage guys etc - to watch and observe what goes on, to help with tasks maybe and at at convenient moments, to ask questions and so on. They should also be taking notes and taking photos.

 

This helps them enormously with their study. They can learn more in a day 'on the job' than they could doing 6 lessons in a theatre. While on site, they were fed and watered and needed for nothing. I also had advised them to bring a few nibbles of their own for peckish moments inbetween lunch and tea breaks

 

The students are well mannered , respectfull, get-on well with the pro crew and take part in the banter etc!! One of them already has been asked to help as a general crew member for a couple of jobs in their summer holidays and I will be using the 2 students who show more interest in lighting to come along with me on a couple of jobs: paid crew as follow-spot ops. (give the truck drivers some time off! hehe)

 

In this day and age mostly because of the cost of everything - travel etc, I dont think its appropriate to expect anyone to work for free - regardless of your intentions. At least an offer of food / drinks, some or all of travel expenses should be paid.

 

If I had been a student and seen Nicks post - I truely would of been banging on his front door to let me take part- and showed my commitment, and hard work to the production BUT would of at least made sure 'the above' was provided!!

 

I dont think Nick went about it the wrong way at all. Its a pity there arnt more opportunities for young people to get Ist hand experience in a totally real / live situation .

 

Thank you. The students were indeed looked after as per your thoughts.. I would be happy to talk further privately about being able to offer your students some more and different opportunities if you would like.

 

And TheLightsTech Thank You too you hit the nail on the head and I completely agree, the American intern program is a great idea, nothing prepares you for the politics you face at the high level of this business more than working with someone involved in it and really when you get to that level 90% of you job is just that.

 

To everyone who thinks what I offered is a bad idea then simply don't worry about it, Im not forcing you to take it.. for those who want the opportunity it will be there again for those who don't then thats fine too.

[Guest lightnix]

Nick, I'm fully aware of and very much respect your work and reputation, which I'm not trying to denigrate in any way. I'm not saying you should stop doing this, I don't think it's a bad idea per se and I hope you will take my criticisms constructively.

 

FWIW I don't think you were trying to deceive anybody, but I do believe that - in this case and despite your honest and best intentions - the OP constituted a call for working crew and went beyond the boundaries of a simple work experience opportunity. I think this is evidenced by a clearly-stated requirement to perform work, according to a pre-defined schedule. It was not a simple opportunity to shadow, take pics, ask questions and get a chance to help with the odd thing or two.

 

I therefore believe that the students who were hired, should - in this case - have been paid the National Minimum Wage (hardly a fortune), in accordance with UK Employment Law. I also believe that this is ultimately a small part of a much wider issue, about how we treat ourselves and each other in the workplace.

 

Have a look at BECTU's Work Experience Guidelines as linked to by dbuckley in another thread. I hope you'll find them useful.

 

:P

[Hilary Watts]

While I can see both sides of the argument in this case, as somebody outside the industry I do have some sympathy with those who are concerned about the possible exploitation of students. Nick has an impressive portfolio on his website but the student won’t know in advance whether or not the experience will result in a worthwhile addition to her CV – if all you’re doing is box pushing or coiling cables, then it probably doesn’t make much difference whether it’s on an international Kylie tour or down at the local pub.

 

It wasn’t clear from Nick’s post, but I assume that at least some of the performers and production staff were paid – if so, then was it not possible for the funds available to be divided between everybody involved?

 

I’d be interested to know what the assistant lighting director actually did in this case – was there any directing involved or was it more assisting than directing? Similarly, how did the others fill their time – was it ‘quizzing the LD’ (or crew chief etc.) or was it providing muscle, runners etc for the benefit of those in charge?

 

Perhaps the answer is, as suggested by others, to channel future offers mainly through colleges or other institutions who can vouch for the bona fides of the ‘employer’ as well as weeding out students who might not make the most of the opportunities offered.

 

The trouble is, that when presented with an offer such as Nick’s, those at the bottom of the ladder, who most need the opportunities, will simply see ‘ number of talented individuals, …..prominent West End shows,….. invaluable learning opportunity, ……touring shows all over the world …….etc.’ and unfortunately in some cases this will lead to exploitation and disillusionment. Those of us who are older and more cautious,( if not wiser), are more able to get the whole picture in advance.

 

If I’d been nearer to London and 30 years younger then I might well have taken up Nick’s offer – but then I can afford to take a week off without pay and if things didn’t live up to expectation then I would not have suffered any great loss. Most of those who are about to enter or have just entered the industry do not have that luxury.

[Paul J Need]

Sorry lightnix but I have to put my halfpenny in here.

 

I spent a summer at the Liverpool Playhouse working under Chief Robert Longthorne in 1980 - about 8 weeks of getting up at stupid o'clock, a 20 mile train trip to Lime Street, a 12 hour day then home again. I "worked" for the Playhouse as an unpaid casual for the summer and gained an awful lot of experience : if I was only allowed to watch and ask questions I would probably have lost interest and applied for a job at Ford's up the road !!

 

During those 8 weeks the thought of getting paid never crossed my mind - it was my choice to invest the time and I thankful to this day I was able to do it. A lot of the things I learnt from Robert I still use today.

 

If people are given all the information and know exactly what the gig is - they can make up their own minds whether tyo do it or not.

 

Of course, there are folk out there who will abuse the free labour market but that's perhaps for another thread....................

 

ttfn

[Guest lightnix]

Sorry lightnix but I have to put my halfpenny in here.

By all means, Sir; although I'm the one who's sorry - as you appear to have missed my point :P

 

I spent a summer at the Liverpool Playhouse... 8 weeks of getting up at stupid o'clock...

...During those 8 weeks the thought of getting paid never crossed my mind...

And it was great that you had that opportunity and that you came (as I did) from a family who could afford for you and me to do that kind of thing and then go swanning off to drama school and all that. But what about those who didn't have that luxury; who couldn't afford the train fares and cost of food every day and were forced into a menial summer job?

 

...if I was only allowed to watch and ask questions I would probably have lost interest...

Fair comment, but work experience doesn't have to be hands-off, QED. The NMW regs and BECTU guidelines are not simply about stopping people from doing things and what you are allowed / not allowed to do. Properly applied, they are about enabling people to fulfil potentials, by protecting them from unnecessary risk - and that doesn't just mean physical harm.

 

If people are given all the information and know exactly what the gig is - they can make up their own minds whether tyo do it or not.

But again: what if they really want to take up the opportunity but don't have the resources?

 

...in 1980...

That's almost half a lifetime ago - things have changed since then. We never left college with thumping great student loans to pay off.

 

Of course, there are folk out there who will abuse the free labour market...

It's a shame you say that, as though it's carved in stone. Don't you think we, as professionals, have a responsibility to work against that kind of thing?

[Jerome]

Before hand, I would always check with the production company or client if its ok and 9/10 times, its fine.

 

See this is just it, most offering the places don't which is why a lot of students do get 'bad' opportunities and experience. Legitimacy is the key.

 

I do however believe that it is down to the student on whether they take the experience and carry it out. I do work experience as a student in fact I've got some this weekend and I'm really looking forward to it. Work experience paid or not does give you a sense of 'the real world'. I did mention it was robbery but that may have been harsh. What I meant by that was that experience is always going to do you well but as a student you are striving to learn how to make money so any opportunity that is 'said' to be of use is like dangling a carrot in front of a donkey. When people have big budgets and you know it you do wonder why they aren't paying you.There is also only so much 'experience' you can take, the problem is that of opportunity. Do you let someone else have the place and you miss out on the one experience that would help your career? You're stook in a loop but I find it always better to take the work experience bad or not as it adds to my knowledge good or bad, others don't. You do feel a little let down when nothing comes of it and they say 'you've worked really hard' or 'you'd fit in well around here', you do feel ripped off slightly because it basically means that you just have the ability to say hello to someone in the future, not work with them.

 

Jerome