djandydee Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 We have just finished our Christmas musical and for the first year have been allowed to use haze to enhance the lighting and camera shots. The machine used was a Look Solutions Unique 2 with some additional fans to disperse haze evenly over the stage. During the week we had several programming nights and set the machine to 50% - after about 1 hour the haze was evenly spread over the entire auditorium. On the dress rehersal with about 300 choir, actors and crew the haze level was harder to maintain and the night of the musical it was quite poor. The machine was on for a couple of hours before people arrived but once we reached capicity - 3000 the haze was gone. we cranked the machine up to 60, 70 then 80% as the haze bellowed down the choir stairs....it was impossible to maintain an even level. Looking back and up to the celing the air was totally clear but really dense at the stage. this was a total dissapointment as we hired over 100K worth of moving light to enhance the 150 par 64 rig. We have a 6 camera vision gallery with racks/vision mixer/graphics with crew on jib, 4 ped cameras and a portable, and broadcast on UCB TV on sky every day and the vision staff are ex BBC. We had some excellent shots lined up using the extra lighting which was spoiled by the haze dissapearing.... I said all that to ask - How do large venues maintain a constant thin haze level. Do we need more hazers, would a DF50 oil based machine work better. I really want to crack this nut before next years show. help help help - thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I wonder if the venue had ventilation systems that ran only during the show? Not uncommon and could explain the problem. Usually I try and get this running during the day to understand dispersion. With AF1 fans and 2x Unique's I have had good success at dense haze in venues of this size and larger. So it's possible you could improve things with a second machine and experimentation in position/fan direction and speed etc. But I would say you will struggle for even coverage using this type of machine no matter what you do.A DF50 or similar will definitely do a better job. Coverage will be even and should hang much better even with strong ventilation and probably look better for the cameras too. I would recommend using two + fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aidso Posted December 21, 2009 Share Posted December 21, 2009 I have found this was the case lots of times. I would usually put it down to the heat generated by the crowd. nothing really can be done bar more machines and careful placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csg Posted December 23, 2009 Share Posted December 23, 2009 fast dispersal is due to the machines in use being water based - despite what manufacturers may tell you there is no water based haze system available that can improve on oil based systems. water based haze particles are much larger, therefore heavier and by their chemical composition attract moisture, and get heavier as a result. this means that it falls out of the air much faster, and is very dependant on temperature and humidity, so much more difficult and unpredictable so, to get a consistant effect, you need an oil based system. Now, the problem here, as many people may tell you is one of residue problems. With crackers this is true ( df50, cirro, swefog etc), and over time an oily residue will build up on more or less everything. Thats unlikely to cause anty problems over a week, but on long term productions it can be a real pain. the best quality haze in my experience comes from heat based atomising oil machines - like MGC, concept phantom. these machines produce smaller and longer hanging particles than both water based systems and oil crackers, while at the same time not having the residue issues of crackers. the drawback is that these systems require compressed gas ( Nitrogen or Co2) to operate which is an additional expense. the machines themselves are also expensive, but in my opinion worth every penny. to give you an idea of how well the haze from these machines hangs, ive just had my concept phantom machine back from a 4 week hire, where it replaced a df50 and 2 unique hazers in a large christmas marquee. The concept replaced all 3 machines, and hazed the venue evenly from one location with one 12" fan. over the 4 weeks, they used 2 litres of oil. these machines are becoming more popular, particularly in TV where fine, consistant camera friendly haze is required, and are available to hire from companies that service the TV industry hope that helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Is the haze going OUT somewhere, it's possible that there are vents to stop the temperature rising too far with 3000 people in there and it's possible that the haze is going out there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ynot Posted December 28, 2009 Share Posted December 28, 2009 Quick question...Where is the hazer located? If it's at ground level you may have better luck keeping it down than if it's higher and relying on the fans to blow it down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djandydee Posted December 29, 2009 Author Share Posted December 29, 2009 http://www.ardsoundandlighting.com/images/lightbox/large/concert7.jpg The haze machine was behind the choir section with a pair of 18" fans blowing the haze down the stairs and out over the stage. It was possible to have it very heavy just at the stage but all those people breathing may have filtered it out. There is no air con in this room to suck the haze out, just a quarter of a million watts of heaters on the celing. http://www.ardsoundandlighting.com/images/lightbox/large/concert8.jpg This picture was taken at the start of the concert and you can see a clump of haze in the centre of the room but none up high. The other snag is the noise a gas machine would produce - There is quite a lot of drama (nativity) at his event and when the choir get going there are 60 mics open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niclights Posted December 29, 2009 Share Posted December 29, 2009 Looking at the pictures I'm sure that mineral oil type is what you need. For silent operating there are those that use CO2 like the MDG and Concept as Chris suggested. One should do the job fine and if there's no ventilation then I don't see much need for a fan either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csg Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 yes 100%, oil is the only system that will give you consistent haze in that space from one machine. I used my concept machine for a big rave event at fantasy island skegness over new years, and it filled the glass pyramid ( which as anybody who knows it will know is huge, and a lot bigger than that church space looks) evenly everywere from one position. A gas propelled machine like the mgc or concept is quiet enough to use in a tv studio, and will be perfectly quiet enough for use on a live stage. I would avoid df50 type compressor machines, they do make a lot of noise.one major advantage of an oil machine is that you can locate it off stage, and it will still fill the space well do use a fan though, it will spin the haze out much faster and more evenly - it only needs a small unit, I use a 12" vent axia portable. so, next time an oil based system will give you the results you need without any question or bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 the best quality haze in my experience comes from heat based atomising oil machines - like MGC, concept phantom.Can I just clarify something? Is this the Concept machine to which you refer? Seems to be marketed as Pea Soup; who I remember from dry ice days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csg Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 yes, manufactured by concept smoke systems. Pea soup are dealers as concept dont seem to like dealing direct with the entertainment business ( apparently it seem they think that we de-value their military credentials??) as far as dry ice is concerned, you are thinking of a pea souper made by le maitre, and still very much around. I invested in a lot of new kit last year, this thing was my best purchase by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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