PA. Set up

[MIKE900]

My band live PA set up is as follows;

Alessis multimix 12 desk

Yamaha P3500S amp

2 X Wharfedale 12" 300W

2 X JBL JRX 118s 350W

Carlsbro 10" active wedge 100W

Carlsbro 10" passive wedge 100W

 

PA set up for - 3 vocal mics, Kick & Snare only. Amp crossover set to about 125 Hz, Channel A = tops, Channel B = JBLs Front of house seems Ok. Monitoring is the problem (only monitoring vocals) singer struggles hearing himself!!: feeding active wedge from Aux send A on desk then daisy chain to passive wedge. Using Aux A on each strip for output level.The vol on active wedge is only set to about 1/4 anymore and feedback starts and need more vol for singer!

Q - With what we have is this the best way to monitor?? Should I be using Aux A send, or another way etc

Q - Is it best to keep wedge as low as possible and lift each strip output more or other way around?

Q - If this is not best way of monitoring, how is best to do it as cheap as poss and not involving too much more gear. Would really like to make use of what we have!

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

Mike

[Shez]

What vocal mics are you using and are you ensuring that the null in their polar pattern is pointing at the wedges?

[MIKE900]

What vocal mics are you using and are you ensuring that the null in their polar pattern is pointing at the wedges?

Using 2 X SM58, 1X Audio Technica? (all dynamic) Please explain "null...." Wedges I think are placed right?

[Doug Siddons]

Check aux 1 is pre fade, and then put a graphic across its out put befor it goes to the monitor and try to notch out feedback frequencies which should get you more volume into the wedge. Also make sure there is no reverb in aux1 send and reduce input gain on the mic. This can be made up on the channel fader and aux send.

[Kevin Ross]

It would not hurt to turn the amp down a bit on the wedge and run more level from the desk’s AUX send. If you google gain structure then that will provide some good reading on why it can help matters.

 

 

 

Other than that I would echo the comments about making sure the mics are positioned correctly and then strapping a graphic EQ over the AUX send to allow a bit more control.

 

 

 

If the singer still wants more then it might be worth going down the IEM route as when you crank the monitors as well as possible feedback you also start to step on the toes of the FOH mix.

[Shez]

Please explain "null...." Wedges I think are placed right?

 

With cardioid pattern mics like 58s, there is a null in their response at 180 degrees off axis (where the cable plugs in). This is the direction in which the mic is least sensitive to picking up sounds from. Keep that pointing at the monitors to minimise the amount of sound that they pick up directly from the monitors.

 

If you're playing in front of a concrete wall, lots of sound from the monitors will reflect back from that and into the mics, which doesn't help. Also, as they are only 100W wedges, it's possible that you're pushing them pretty hard which always exacerbates feedback issues - their response will become increasingly non-linear which is bad news for feedback prevention.

 

Is there a clipping light on the wedge - something to indicate when you're feeding it the maximum signal it can handle? Does this light up?

Seeking clarification, what's the limiting factor here - is it feedback or is it that everything is turned up to 11 and it's just not possible to make the wedges any louder?

[themadhippy]

whats the singer got in there wedge? is it the usual "bit of everything" if so try it with just there vocals.

[LampTramp]

Is this not what you noise boys call ringing out?

Have the monitors on an EQ turn em up = feedback!! Pull the frequences out and Bob's yr Uncle??!

[The Boogie Man]

Educating the singer as to mic technique can make a big difference as well. (ignore if he/she is a proffessional and knows this) Swallowing the mic, singing into the side of it or holding it at arms lengh are all causes of bad gain structre.

[AndyL]

Educating the singer as to mic technique can make a big difference as well. (ignore if he/she is a proffessional and knows this) Swallowing the mic, singing into the side of it or holding it at arms lengh are all causes of bad gain structre.

You missed out the worst offence - cupping the mic! :)

 

(For anyone who doesn't already know, any mic with any directional pattern becomes omni-directional if you cover the back of it...)

[tolley1466]

Educating the singer as to mic technique can make a big difference as well. (ignore if he/she is a proffessional and knows this) Swallowing the mic, singing into the side of it or holding it at arms lengh are all causes of bad gain structre.

You missed out the worst offence - cupping the mic! :)

 

(For anyone who doesn't already know, any mic with any directional pattern becomes omni-directional if you cover the back of it...)

 

And it sounds terrible...

[pumpkinhead456]

I think with your current set-up, the main thing is to make sure the gain at the mic input is kept as low as possible. Push the fader up to the top of the strip and the aux up, then turn up the gain slowly until the ringing starts. Back the fader strip of a little and you should be left with a bit room.

Put a bit rug on the wall behind the singer if possible, and make sure the wedge is pointing directly at the back of the mic (including angling the mic towards the ceiling a bit). That's all you can do without buying an EQ.

If you have a spare £100+ quid buy a feedback destroyer/eq and that should sort ya out!

[paulears]

I've always found the feedback processors I have in my rack the most underused, and least functional things I have. They can control feedback, but to do it, they need to let feedback happen to lock the filters onto - easy to do at soundcheck, but when you need a little more volume during the show/set they can do really odd things - and you must let the audience wince for the things to lock. I hate them.

[ferrisio]

I've always found the feedback processors I have in my rack the most underused, and least functional things I have. They can control feedback, but to do it, they need to let feedback happen to lock the filters onto - easy to do at soundcheck, but when you need a little more volume during the show/set they can do really odd things - and you must let the audience wince for the things to lock. I hate them.

I'm not a big fan either if they are left unattended, but certainly with the Behringer one if you set it to 'lock and hold' or whatever they describe it as, you can ring out the wedge during soundcheck and allow it to notch out (up to) the 12 most prominent frequencies, BUT not have it actively search for new ones which is where the problems you just described occur. Nothing is going to work miracles with a 100W monitor cranked up though I suppose.

 

Obviously the best way is trained ears/graphic, but I have seen FBDs perform very well in the small gig/small monitors/unskilled engineer scenario as long as they aren't set to re-use the notch filters.

[Rob_Beech]

I too hate feedback destroyers, feedback during the show is un-acceptable, ok sometimes it just happens, we're only human, but it's still no good at all.

 

A graphic eq or a parametric eq on the monitor output is what you could benefit from here, sometimes feedback destroyers can be used manually as a parametric eq making them slightly more useful.

 

The other concern with them is the 12 most prominent frequencies. If you need to take out 12 parametric frequencies to get a wedge loud enough, give up. There is nothing left, what you have is a mess, that's still not loud enough.

 

My guess is that essentially your monitors simply aren't big enough to cope with the demands of the singer, which I'm sure aren't massive demands. Remember that as you're only putting mics on kick and snare, and no backline, then the backline needs to cover the entire crowd, so will often be louder than it would need to be if reinforced by the PA, this means a louder stage volume, which means that monitors need to be louder to cope.

 

 

Mike, where are you based, trying hiring some bigger and better monitors (and an amp and an eq if necessary) if you can budget for it and see how that helps. If it's a massive improvement then sadly, you've found the problem.

 

An eq might help but the chances are it'll just get you an extra couple of dB before feedback which on a loud stage you're simply not going to hear.

 

Rob