Disco Dan Lasers

[Chris Adam]

guys,

 

Had a browse through the wiki and the forum, but didn't quite get the answer I need.

 

I've got a dance event coming through the venue this week that unfortunately (or fortunately) I wont be here for due to another job. I've just heard from the promoter that they want to bring some "lasers" with them, but after a bit of pushing, I've found out that it's the type you can buy in any DJ store.

 

Now, I know that larger lasers require to be pointed away from crowds, require a qualified operator and also require the venues Public performance licence to allow lasers which I why I'd always sub contract a specialist company, but I know nothing at all about these disco dan ones.

 

So, I'm looking for the following answers:

 

a) Can they be used in a venue without having it in the licence?

b) Is there any regulations covering their use?

c) Should this laser still be pointed away from crowds?

 

I'm going to do a bit more research myself today too, but just thought I'd ask here.

 

cheers in advance.

[Guest lightnix]

We're still waiting for the creation of a Laser forum (it having been voted for 6 months ago) :P

 

In the meantime, http://www.photonlexicon.com/forums/index.php is said by many BR members to be a good source of laser info - try in there.

 

Hope that helps :unsure:

[niclights]

You may find it difficult to come up with a definitive answer. Some will say it's fine, others will say any exposure is dangerous etc. It will also mainly depend on your local authorities interpretation.

 

Here things are very strict and we tend to say no to all. The one exception I can think of was for a higher power display where the operators were professional and had all the necessary paperwork. Even then it had to be submitted one month in advance, was substantial and required a visit from officials on the day.

 

I think, while the power may be lower, there is a danger that the 'disco' lasers have greater potential to be operated carelessly and therefore with increased risk.

[drsound]

If it's a Class 3B laser to BS EN 60825-1 as most seem to be then the following guidance is stated in the standard (paraphrased a bit here):

 

Class 3B

Radiation in this class is very likely to be dangerous. For a continuous wave laser the maximum output into the eye must not exceed 500mW. The radiation can be a hazard to the eye or skin. However, viewing of the diffuse reflection is safe.

 

This slightly self-contradictory statement would suggest that all Class 3B devices are dangerous but a device of less than 500mW is safe under all conditions! I'm a wee bit confused, anyone able to further clarify? As with any potentially harmful equipment I would imagine that meeting this requirement alone would not be enough to extract your danglies from the chopping block if something went wrong.

 

500mW is a chuffin' big laser right enough.

 

I tend to play it safe with any laser and point it straight into the air if it's outdoors or onto a nice non-reflective surface well above the crowd if it's indoors. Personally I think they look quite rubbish more often than not so I don't often specify them.

 

If you're responsible and can't nominate a suitable deputy to ensure that they're used safely I'd be inclined just to say no.

 

One concern I have about cheap imported laser products is that while they all proudly display their CE mark and define into which class they fall, can we be confident that all the models imported into the EU from China (or elsewhere for that matter) have actually been exhaustively tested to demonstrate compliance? Call me a cynic but I have my doubts. You can't make bargain basement LEDs that are even vaguely consistent in output so why should the laser diodes be any better.

[collism]

In general I think the disco dan laser would not cause much problem given that they will be much less then the 500mW figures being banded about but surely it would be sensible to:

 

(a) ask for their public liability insurance (assuming yours does not cover lasers)

(b) ask them to provide a risk assessment in relation to the lasers.

 

As a starting point and see what they come up with.

[Chris Adam]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I'd managed to get my hands on a copy of the newest regs this afternoon, and have since declined their plans to use lasers. Normally I'd go out of my way to make things happen for a client, but with two days notice, the local authority didn't want to know, which is fair enough.

 

If anything, it's highlighted something for me to look into and I'll have a chat to our local laser suppliers to get myself up to speed. It's just not something that I've had to deal with up until now. As stated in my original post, any time lasers have been used, it's been someone elses responsability.

[KevinE]

First of all, a customer of mine has just had their 1-month old 100mW DPSS laser confiscated by the local unitary council because they dont have a laser license.

 

I've just serviced a 100mW green DPSS laser which had scan fail, meaning a solid static dot was projected continuously from the front. I only viewed the laser from behind and the reflection from a breeze-block wall was enough to dazzle me!

 

There are several 100mW laser demonstrations on youtube where static beams are used to burst balloons!

[collism]

There is no such thing as a laser licence in the UK. Here's a really good link for laser safety/usage information - lasers are not my area of expertise but the one day training course offered by Laser Visuals comes highly recommended by others.

 

http://www.lasershowsafety.org/

 

http://www.laservisuals.com/facts.htm

[KevinE]

There is no such thing as a laser licence in the UK

 

The council stated that the venue was in breach of its public entertainments license agreement because they required to have a trained laser safety officer listed with their 'laser safety certificates' attached to their formal risk assessment and they didn't have either the certificate or the appointed officer. The choice was to either relinquish the laser immediately, to apply for a new pub/ents/license with the modified risk assessment or to close the venue. They chose to relinquish the laser!

 

I am privy to these circumstances because I turned up with my laptop to programme the laser and found a couple of dangling wires from the roof where it had been.

[musht]

Sure be fascinated to hear exactly what these " laser safety certificates" are and who issues them under what authority?

 

Agree its rarely good to tee off a local authority licencing orificer. it also not not good to roll over and play dead either......

[KevinE]

They also demanded that the ceiling-flown neon strips be taken down as they could pose a potential hazard.

 

This laser safety certificate was something she wanted to see so that she could be assured that someone with the proper training would be present whenever the laser was switched on.

[sleah]

a) Can they be used in a venue without having it in the licence?

b) Is there any regulations covering their use?

c) Should this laser still be pointed away from crowds?

I know it's old news now for the OP, but for the benifit of others:

 

a) As stated elsewhere there is no such thing as a laser license in any way shape or form!

HOWEVER.... as also stated it may be the venue has a clause prohibiting the use of lasers, or allowing them providing certain conditions are met, neither of which are a "License" to use a laser.

b) YES. It's already been mentioned, but a search of the HSE website will help.

c) see above!

 

(a) ask for their public liability insurance (assuming yours does not cover lasers)

(b) ask them to provide a risk assessment in relation to the lasers.

(a) absolutely! In a similar to the above mentioned, PLI may or may not allow the use of lasers, if they are prohibited then the PLI will be invalid. If it's the venue's PLI then it will have conditions that will need to be met, if it's the owner/operators PLI then similar conditions may well apply.

(b) As with anything that poses a risk to either staff, public or operators, as risk assessment should be carried out. With a laser, alhough a generic one can be used, it will need to reflect the specific venue and location within said venue that it will be used.

 

First of all, a customer of mine has just had their 1-month old 100mW DPSS laser confiscated by the local unitary council because they dont have a laser license.

Which is actually theft, if that was the wording used, again because

There is no such thing as a laser licence in the UK

HOWEVER:

The council stated that the venue was in breach of its public entertainments license agreement because they required to have a trained laser safety officer listed with their 'laser safety certificates' attached to their formal risk assessment and they didn't have either the certificate or the appointed officer. The choice was to either relinquish the laser immediately, to apply for a new pub/ents/license with the modified risk assessment or to close the venue. They chose to relinquish the laser!

Is the actual reason. It's all in the wording!!

[Chris Adam]

Having worked in a local authority venue I have seen many instances where things have been condemed due to "health and safety" simply because the HSO didn't understand the task and took the easy route. For example, a load in was seen as a "health and safety nightmare", which we all know is rubbish if it's done right. (manual handling training etc)

 

The only reason I erred on the side of caution was due to the client having no knowledge about laser safety. I can understand why our local authority didn't have much faith in it being sorted by the weekend. Whilst there is no such thing as a laser licence, there clearly are safety issues and responsabilities that have to be considered.

[drsound]

I quite agree that numpties should be prevented from causing members of the public harm. However, imposing sweeping guidelines, draconian or otherwise, does little to help. Why can't they use the phrase 'common sense' somewhere on the risk assessment form. I propose 'Does the individual proposing to use the aforementioned methods/equipment display even a hint of common sense?'.

 

It's just the same as the many council-owned venues that will insist on all gear carrying a valid PAT sticker which, as everyone knows, guarantees its electrical safety. Just to be on the safe side they often ban all 'smoke' machines because they heard they cause cancer or syphilis or something.

 

I like the way that the HSE felt the need to make a TV programme recently pointing out that even they think some people take H&S too far.

 

I tell you, it's a wonder homo sapiens managed to get this far without having council health and safety officers to help them for the first couple of hundred thousand years.

[slipstream]

I tell you, it's a wonder homo sapiens managed to get this far without having council health and safety officers to help them for the first couple of hundred thousand years.

 

The smart ones survived and adapted, the dumb ones killed themselves by inventing wheels before safety guards and dead man switches, the safety Elf is effecting blocking evolution from thinning the herd, which has been so successful in creating the species as we know it.

 

It's all going to be a regressive step, allowing the stupid to procreate whilst we work ourselves to death and don't have enough time for relationships.

 

Ug

 

"Don't look at laser beam with remaining good eye"