Pyro Help

[PhilB]

Hi all, I am starting up a small hire company and would like to buy a simple pyro system (2 way firer and pods. cable etc)

Is there any rules/License's I need to keep them in my hire stock and hire them out, or is it the sole responsibility of the venue/organisation who is the 'hirer' to organise?

 

A quick search bought up some useful info but it seems to date back a few years so would like some up-to-date info!

 

One last thing whats the recommended thickness for the cable to connect the controller to the pods?

 

Thanks Very Much,

Phil

[Stee_cri1]

hi phil

 

I am not totally clued up on this and im sure there are better people out there to answer this but for a start for you is, you dont need a license to operate them but you do to transport them and store.

 

Why not contact an SFX company such as BPM-SFX and see what they say, they are usually very helpfull guys

[Jivemaster]

In the hire stock no problem, but you wold need to be sure that you were only hiring to capable people lest someone comes back to you -you wouldn't hire a car to a non driver! You would need a way to be sure that the hirer was competent.

 

Perhaps look at the Pyro Course at the head of the effects and pyro forum and DO the course - you would understand a lot more that way.

 

There is also the issue of storing the consumables! Stage pyro are mostly cat1 indooor fireworks in HT1.4, the regulations (MSER) for storage are few for a small weight of explosive. BUT they must be followed and likely a storage licence will be needed. Almost certainly from your local Trading Standards Office.

 

There seems little point in stocking the controllers without the lives BUT live pyro has a use by date and you would need good stock control not to lose money on items going out of date, that were not as popular as you thought, Also Pyros need to be traded by the package sized unit - may be 10s or 12s or even 20s You cannot supply singles.

 

If you are going to stock the hardware the see how you can get the live pyros that you will need. If you have the turnover of pyro suppliers will supply to you.

[Ynot]

In the hire stock no problem, but you wold need to be sure that you were only hiring to capable people lest someone comes back to you -you wouldn't hire a car to a non driver! You would need a way to be sure that the hirer was competent.

Much as I'd love to agree with you there, I doubt that would be practical to manage. HOW wuld a supplier be able to confirm the suitability of a hirer?

I know from experience that even the big companies can't/won't/don't differentiate when sending out gear or supplying the actual effects. And as has been rightly said there's no licensing required for users, there's absolutely no reason for the supplier to even contemplate discretionary supply...

 

The analogy with a car hire is a poor one, in that drivers ARE licensed of course and proof of that license is required to hire a vehicle.

[LampTramp]

As far as a hire company goes you can store up to around 4Kg of pyro.....seing as each maroon/flash has just mg's thats alot of pyro!!

Also the thinking is that storage should be in the original boxes...not in a metal lockers or gun cupboards...as flying metal hurts!!

As far as pyro cable goes we use 2 core speaker cable (the thin stuff) its only taking a max of 18v any way!!!!! same as birdie cable!

Hope that helps

bri

[PhilB]

Thanks for your replies so far, I doubt I will be keeping the consumables in stock at the moment, probably just buy them in when required.

 

I have a drum of 100m 0.75mm mains cable hanging around which isn't sutable for much else so was planning to make that into some useful lenghts!

[slipstream]

Do you need a license to buy the pods? No - then you don't need one to hire them. Storage should be in full cases and sold as full boxes, filing cabinet can hold enough to stay within limits.

 

Sam

[JimWebber]

(Snip)

The analogy with a car hire is a poor one, in that drivers ARE licensed of course and proof of that license is required to hire a vehicle.

 

And I suspect that the only reason that you have to produce your driving licence when hiring a vehicle, is for the companies y's protection, ie) So that there is a reasonable chance that their car comes back in one piece, and as a requirement for their insurance company, again so that there is a reasonable chance that they will not have to pay up for damage to said vehicle.......

 

I suspect (Waits to be proved wrong) that there is no LEGAL requirement to present your licence to those nice people at Hertz?

 

 

Jim

[mikienorth]

Do you need a license to buy the pods? No - then you don't need one to hire them. Storage should be in full cases and sold as full boxes, filing cabinet can hold enough to stay within limits.

 

Sam

 

But aren't filing cabinets generally made of METAL, and therefore not the cleverest place to store them.....

 

See earlier post about flying metal (shrapnel)

[JimWebber]

But aren't filing cabinets generally made of METAL, and therefore not the cleverest place to store them.....

 

See earlier post about flying metal (shrapnel)

 

Surely better a metal cabinet then a (flammable) cardboard box?

 

Jim

[mikienorth]

IIRC, actually not. The cardboard box is a UN approved container for transporting and storing explosives, and the metal filing cabinet/coshh cupboard is not.

 

I recall it is to do with containing the explosive. If you light an old fashioned banger full of loose powder, it just burns quickly. When it is contained in a tight tube it explodes.

 

. Imagine scaling it down to a rather tightly packed filing cabinet in a building on fire full of firemen...

 

I am sure it is in the MSER that you have to store them in their UN approved containers now, not transfer them to a metal box. However, I await more expert clarification (Brian, Lincoln et al)

[soundo26]

As far as I know there is no such thing as an Official License but you must take some training on the handling, storage & usage of Pyrotechnics, without training you will find it very difficult to operate & satisfy the various H&S and fire inspectors. You must also ensure that you get insurance to cover you as an operator, standard PLI won't do.

 

Google the Association of Stage Pyrotechnicians which is the closest thing to an official body, training info will be on their site. Contact Lincoln Parkhouse of Just FX in North London, he does most of the approved courses and is the Guru!

[Brian]

Surely better a metal cabinet then a (flammable) cardboard box?

 

When storing pyro, to comply with MSER, you have to consider the Hazard Type (HT) of the material you are storing. This takes into account the type of devices, the amount of explosives in the devices and the storage conditions. The last bit is important; storing enough material together will take your HT from '4' to '3'. Material of HT4 has the least stringent storage requirements and is generally very easy for your average venue to deal with. HT3 is a different ball-game with different maximum amounts and with different safety distances.

 

HT3 also has an interesting insurance consideration. MSER states that fires involving HT3 (or HT2 or HT1) 'must not be fought'. It's a bit like a fire involving gas cylinders - the procedure becomes one of letting the building burn whilst protecting adjacent properties from a distance.

 

What moves material from HT4 to HT3 is confinement. Confining burning material changes its burn rate and hence its explosive properties and can turn something that normally goes 'fizz' into something that goes 'bang'. Put something going 'bang' inside a metal box and you have something that might well throw shrapnel around.

 

There is also the question of heat communication. A fire outside a metal storage box will quickly communicate its heat to the contents. HSE have done some tests on fireworks stored in metal cabinets and it's amazing how quickly the contents took fire. The same tests on wooden storage showed a much longer window before the contents set light.

 

The ACoP&G to MSER is your friend here. (hint: sections 268 - 280).

 

What is right for your venue will depend on many factors and, just like any other work activity, you should undertake a risk assessment to determine the correct policy. However, for the RA to be worthwhile you'll need to be competent.

 

It's also worth pointing out that the same issues apply to flammable substances especially some propellants.

[Jivemaster]

There are conflicting requirements for safe storage, High security, and LOW confinement.

 

The words fron the top of the HSE in a private email to me were "...to frustrate a concerted attack using hand tools." so the container must stop a moderate attempt at unauthorised removal, Which the UN carton fails very clearly! (because someone could just pick up the box and walk away)!

 

Correct storage would need to be discussed with your licensing Trading Standards Officer.

 

The devices Must be in their UN boxes, they must be secured ""...to frustrate a concerted attack using hand tools..! and must NOT have added confinement.

 

Exactly HOW this is achieved is up to your TSO and storage licence terms.

[expertwitness]

Dear Phil

 

We are agents for Le Maitre. Their website is very good, and will tell you all you need to know.

 

If you are thinking of buying pyros, we can supply any item from the Le Maitre product list.

 

We are currently running a special offer for April 2009, offering 20% discount on the list prices.

 

www.hands-on-uk.com

 

This offer runs out at the end of April 2009, so be quick.

 

regards

 

perry@hands-on-uk.com