Martin Blackline/EV?

[richie1575]

Hi Guys

 

What are your thoughts on the following... A church (which has bought an old school building) has approached me for some sound system improvements and I'm after your opinions on the FOH speakers.

 

Being an EV-Neck, Electrovoice is my natural choice... using a pair of ZX5 and a pair of RX118. I'm familiar with these and they seem to sound ok...

 

But... I was wondering about something different... maybe using a pair of Martin F15+ with F18+ subs to match. I'm not so familiar with these so would value some input... I guess both brands would sound ok, but any thoughts you have would be appreciated. Other alternatives also welcome!!

 

Also some ideas on Power Amps... QSC's RMX or Crowns xtI series are on my shortlist! This system is to be permanently installed, so weight not an issue!

 

Look forward to hearing some opinions!

Thanks in advance,

 

Richie

[Mr.Si]

Hi Richie,

 

I think I can speak for many here when I say that an idea of how you intend to have it set up, dimensions, shape and wall surfaces of the room, the programme material to be put through the system etc would be most appreciated for us to give you a better help.

 

Blessings,

Si

[richie1575]

Sorry for the lack of detail I didn't actually measure the room... :D but I should have done! It's rectangular in shape and I'd crudely guess around 12m wide by around 20 metres in length and their format is "portrait" as opposed to landscape! Ceiling height is around 3.5 metres with a false ceiling. The room is fairly lively in terms of acoustics, but they are planning to remedy this with the addition of a carpet and some sound deadening on the back wall!

 

I plan to either fly the speakers either side of the stage (but need to check the metalwork above the false ceiling) or wall-mount them. The subs will live under the stage.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Richie

[Kevin Ross]

I await correction but I don't think I have ever seen an F15 flown before (the speaker not the plane!) and as far as I know and can see on their website it is not designed for flying. Now you could get a flying frame made up etc but that would bump up the cost.

 

The EV ZX5 has flying points built in and from experience is a doodle to fly you just need to buy the eye bolts or yoke kit.

 

Both are good speaker systems but if flying is high on your list of things to do then for me it would tip the deal towards the EVs. Unless of course you look at the Martin W3 cabs in place of the F15s which are designed for flying plus they have a tighter pattern that might be useful in a room which is "lively", but then cost more............

[Rob_Beech]

I await correction but I don't think I have ever seen an F15 flown before (the speaker not the plane!) and as far as I know and can see on their website it is not designed for flying.

 

Await no more :D

 

The HTK F15Y ; HTKC T05 Eye Bolts;

 

It's just a standard, unscrew the screws and put the flyware in place job like on most boxes. Exactly the same as the W3.

 

I'm not an F15 fan, If you are using subs I'd recommend the F12 from that range. If vocal reinforcement is the priority which is most likely is.

This also opens up the HTK M20 wall bracket option which is also quick to fit (unscrew the screws, put the bracket on put the bolts back through).

 

 

 

 

The ZX5 rigging is somewhat more advanced with numerous options available. Sound wise, both good boxes, which you prefer is your choice, it's all subjective. My subjective opinion, I like the UK.

 

 

 

Rob

 

 

 

.....it's gone 5am and I'm still talking about bloody speakers.... sorry about the font, it's annoying. I don't know what happened, half went really small and I don't know what the default is, nor do I care at this time.

[Simon Lewis]

but they are planning to remedy this with the addition of a carpet and some sound deadening on the back wall!

 

I would suggest that they at least get some input from someone who understands acoustics before they spend money doing that...

[Matt Riley]

If you can, try to fly the speakers. If you use brackets, unless the stage is recessed into the back wall, then you'll end up either putting them on the side walls, which can give less even coverage, or putting them on the back wall and getting no gain before feedback.

 

In terms of amps, I'd get something like QSC Rmx, and then put a loudspeaker management system (minidrive or driverack 260) in front of them instead of relying on the dsp inside the XTis. If budget shrinks, then thomann TA2400s can work well.

 

In terms of speakers themselves, the TXD series from Turbosound is very good for this sort of application and has a similar sound to the martin f series. Also maybe look at HK stuff. This might be because I'm crazy, but I'm really enjoying using our martin W3 rig at the moment, and they go pretty cheap second hand, so perhaps have a listen. They also have flying yokes available, which can be a bit of a blessing in these applications.

 

Matt

[Rob_Beech]

I'm not aware of any DSP issues on the XTIs. Have you encountered problems? I haven't on my 18.

 

TXD are another good choice and sound very good. A little more wallet friendly than the blackline aswell. However.... The txd boxes I own don't sound like the blackline boxes I own and they're both a 12+1 so I'm not sure which models Matt is referring to. All that said, they both sound good.

[Kevin Ross]

I await correction but I don't think I have ever seen an F15 flown before (the speaker not the plane!) and as far as I know and can see on their website it is not designed for flying.

 

Await no more :D

 

The HTK F15Y ; HTKC T05 Eye Bolts;

 

 

You live and learn, thanks for that.

 

I would also echo that I`m not a massive fan of the f15 but that is just my own opinion and they are still a good box there are just better options around for the same money IMHO

 

p.s Just had a look on the view new posts screen and you are on there about 8 times, you need help for your blue room adidiction.........

[Rob_Beech]

Just trying to help people :D

[MarkBarl]

In the vein of previous posts

 

A popular statement goes something like this:

• The average Church buys four sound systems. The first sound system is often installed by the lowest bidder when a church is built.
  
• The second system is often installed by the local "Expert", who is often a sincere, hard working and a well meaning church member who is an audio hobbyist (with the books and with the purest of intentions,) or from a local music or electronics store.
  
• The third sound system is often designed, engineered and installed by a professional audio company who does all types of sound systems, earning the title of "audio expert".
  
• The fourth and final system is the system that becomes the permanent system that will not be redesigned ever again. This system will last the life time of the church building and will have equipment upgrades as equipment fails due to age, wear and tear or as the ministry expands.
  
• These final systems are designed and installed by the few who have a true understanding of the peculiar audio and acoustical needs of a church. These people go to great lengths to educate the members of the church before a proposal is even submitted.
  

A paraphrase from "The Complete Handbook of Public Address Sound System" by F. Alton Everest - Copyright ©1978 by Tab Books No. 966 (Page 8)

 

I can't find the whole text at the moment, though I have read it on-line. The basic gist being that you should always consult an acoustic engineer first who will be able to advise on the sound proofing and system design. I suspect that they would stop short of specifying particular boxes but they would be able to give advice on speaker placement and and delay lines etc required to facilitate good coverage for spoken word as well as music.

[Rob_Beech]

Mark is absolutely correct. It's not just churches but it's the primary example of this type of work.

 

To add. The 4th system is by far the most expensive system of the 4. But generally it's no more expensive than the other 3 put together.

[Killyp]

Just as a quick question, do you feel the same applies for 'gig pubs' (those who take gigging seriously)?

[rusty999]

I await correction but I don't think I have ever seen an F15 flown before (the speaker not the plane!) and as far as I know and can see on their website it is not designed for flying.

 

Await no more :blink:

 

The HTK F15Y ; HTKC T05 Eye Bolts;

 

 

You live and learn, thanks for that.

 

I would also echo that I`m not a massive fan of the f15 but that is just my own opinion and they are still a good box there are just better options around for the same money IMHO

 

p.s Just had a look on the view new posts screen and you are on there about 8 times, you need help for your blue room adidiction.........

 

hi Guys , I'm new as of just now -so any info greatly appreciated.

just curious about your comments on the f15 martin speakers

I have 4 F 15s and 4 S18s

With M3 controller obviously

Lab gruppen amps and also Martin amps

I have yet to hear a system to equal this set up-at a similar price.

I have tried them all believe me from Ev, Dynacord, H K audio etc etc

 

But for power and loudness and of course quality of sound I swear by this rig.

But I would love to hear why you guys are not fans of the F 15s? I know they are heavy beasts to lug around for live work but apart from that I could not find a fault with them.

 

Thanks and a great 2009 to you all

Rusty

[Killyp]

I can't really speak for Rob and the others, but my general experience has been that 15" cabs don't seem to handle vocals, and in fact mid-range in general particularly well when driven hard.

 

I will of course stand corrected and I have heard a few systems which perform very well. Having said that, I believe this is why d&b generally tend to use a combination of 12" drivers instead of single 15" drivers in their speakers.