Freelance Rates

[Daniel]

Hi there,

Just starting out as a freelance LD - I've been LDing for quite a while, but always under the umbrella of a company.

 

I'm probably going to start out in freelance world just doing support bands, etc, at averagely sized venues (ranging from 400-900 capacity).

 

I have no idea what the "going rate" is for freelance on this type of work, so no idea where to ballpark my figures for this.

 

Any recommendations?

 

Regards,

Dan

[niclights]

This question comes up regularly. I know how much I'd charge but it all depends on too many things. I don't think there can be an answer.

 

But regarding support bands at this level, I would be surprised. It is incredibly rare especially considering the average fee is unlikely to cover costs, let alone pay the band. Maybe 75% have FOH sound but not even 1% bring LD or mons. So the answer might be 'free', with the hope they build!

[Daniel]

I don't think I explained too well.

 

Even though I'll be going freelance, I will be working freelance for a few venues who don't have LDs on staff, as needed. This means I'll mostly just be brought in to take care of the support bands, possibly getting to do the odd few headliners who don't have an LD with them.

 

So really - what do I charge the venue for this? (Not naming any names, but these venues won't exactly be short of money either... most of the headliners will be well known, and all of the support bands will be signed, etc)

[JDP]

Support bands are tricky. Usually, for places that Nic works in, theres an LD for the main band; the LD will turn up LD the main band and (with no offense Nic) give the support band to someone like Nic to LD or another in house. After the support band have finished, there will be a changeover, usually of desks, unless the band is touring a floor package and the band LD will do the main act. Some bands ie the main act, don't have LDs, so touring into venues like Nic works in have equipment and there is an in house operator like Nic to do the show.

 

Usually,the first thing to go on the list (after the tour manager) is the FOH and Monitor engineer, usually respectively, with the band setting their own kit up, then back line techs, then merch girl, then liggers, then more liggers, then girlfriends, then groupies, and if theres any room left in the bus the LD - and that for the main band..!

 

Some established bands that do supports for larger tours for Arenas will have LDs for the Arena tour, but usually, these kinds of bands supporting arena tours will fill up Brixtons or Shepherds Bush Empire and have LDs already. Or, for the less established bands, that don't have an LD, someone like the dimmer man or crew chief will run the desk for them on an Arena tour - and the LD will come out front for the main act.

 

Seriously, its a crazy world in the touring market. The size market you are touring in won't be looking for LDs, bands that do 900 seat venues probably don't have back line techs, or of they do, its usually the tour manager who also happens to be the 'tour bus' driver. And the tour bus for these bands is a sprinter van with some seats and a DVD player in! Then, the second a band moves up, management companies like 19 become involved and take LDs off the shelf - usually with track records as other bands' LDs.

 

 

 

Edit, I see you get in before me there! Regarding rates for venues, I think you may be dis-illusioned but the amount of money venues pay. Personally, I know that to pay my bills I need to work for at least £180 per day for a days work, up to 12 hours. Last time I heard of a venue paying an 'in house' LD on the money front it was around £100 - £120, with NO free drinks (ie not even a coke), and thats from a very well known London venue, which has actually now shut down, or is just about to. Get as much as you can, to be honest, and barter. Just make sure that you get paid, preferably on the night or in advance - despite being well known venues with well known bands, these people are real buggers for payment, forget giving them ANY credit - get paid on the night or in advance - SERIOUSLY they may appear to have lots of money, but there a crap at paying anyone..

[paulears]

Support bands in 400-900 capacity venues get paid peanuts, and usually get limited facilities - because they mstn't outshine the headliners. What would you do as an LD for the support? No way will you get any time to refocus, colour or have much time on the desk. Assuming they have some decent lighting, if you are on first, you won't be able to use any of the obvious looks as the main band LD will be most upset. Support bands are kind of disposable, so often there simply isn't any money, and little scope for anything other than a rough sound mix, and enough light to see?

[Daniel]

As said above, I will be contracted by the venue.

 

Knowing the people I'm working for, it will likely end up being "can you come do lights tonight?" and then me turning up to find I'm doing 1 support act... or turning up and find out I'm doing a rather famous headliner.

 

In terms of refocusing, etc, any act I'm doing will be using the house rigs which (as far as I'm aware) very rarely change - so that won't be a problem, and I'll get the sound checks etc in which to program. Both are relatively new venues, so mostly LED stuff and movers - any refocusing/colouring will be done from the desk.

 

As said above, it is certain I will be able to get work, and it is certain I will be paid - and as long as what I charge is around the ballpark figure for "LDing for a night" I shouldn't have any problems at all.

 

Unfortunately, I don't know what that figure is.

 

Would you guys really vary what you charge for a night, if you were always using house rigs, but say - one night was 3 supports, another night was 1 headliner (which would obviously require a bit more programming before the show) - I assumed (as you're being contracted by the venue) that I'd charge near the same amount for both...

 

Maybe I should've phrased my question: I will be occasionally be called in by a venue to LD a headline band that do not have their own LD. What do I charge?

[gareth]

WIth all respect, what you're doing is not lighting design, so asking about the going rate for a freelance lighting designer isn't really the right question. From the description of the work that you'll be doing, if I had to pigeon-hole you as one specific 'job description' then I'd call you a lighting operator, or perhaps just a plain old lighting technician. I'd be thinking along the same lines as JDP and saying that a bare minimum day rate for a freelance lighting tech/operator would be £180 for a maximum 12-hour day - perhaps a little less for someone who's new to the business and looking to do a few small gigs to get their feet onto the first rungs of the ladder. (If the gig involved substantial travelling or an overnight stay, I'd expect this to be dealt with in addition to the day rate.)

[niclights]

Well, that puts a different tack on it.

 

In contrast to JDP's comments it is actually not so common for main bands to tour LD's/lamps at this level. In fact some years I can light almost all the shows. The very most I would expect is 50%. Typically it is the latest 'NME' darlings that tour LD's with a few bits and pieces.

 

But this does mean you would likely be required for more than just supports. From a venue perspective I can assure you they almost certainly will be short of money. Gigs mostly operate on a loss. And for this reason I can't believe they would hire someone just to do a support. However, if they don't have in house and need for headliner then I would expect realistic rates will be far less than typical touring, but perhaps with an agreement to do all the shows? On this basis I wouldn't pitch much over £100 per show.

 

And, as an aside, I have never yet had a desk switchover situation. Either rig will be patched into touring console and I would operate on that, or two desks will be used with house/touring kit split across the two (for ease of patch/programming). Also, virtually all bands at this level do have backline techs, usually more than one. And that's even if there is no monitor or lighting engineer. It's also insulting to suggest venues are bad at paying people as some sort of generalisation. (All for JDP's information.)

[JDP]

Hi Nic, points taken. Didn't mean to generise all venues, but as you say, if gigs operate on a loss, then venues tend to want to pay little money - and not very quickly. Interesting to see that you don't many LDs through the door... will have to do some homework on that ;)

 

As Gareth says its not really LDing as such, more pushing buttons. LDing is when your filling an empty space with truss, moving lights etc, in a particular shape or style to suit each band.

 

Also, coming back on what Gareth said about day rates. If I was working for a proper company, then really, any less than £180 per day (£150 on long touring periods) is not acceptable. Perhaps I am generalising venues again here, but I can't see ANY venue paying £180 per day for someone - that said, I can't see anyone paying much more than £150, and I think then your probably beyond pushing it. I suspect that £100 - £120 will be it, although I may be pleasantly surprised?

[Daniel]

Cheers for all the info guys.

 

I've been speaking to someone in my area that is doing the same kind of stuff in the same kind of spaces, and he reckons aiming for about £120/gig for a venue contracted job is about right. So that goes along with what you guys have said. And, to be honest, not at all much less than what I was expecting.

 

In regards to the desk switchover, I'm currently chief LX in a recieving band venue, and apart from 1 gig I can't think of a time when we haven't done a switchover... always our desk with our rig for supports, then their desk with our rig + their rig for headliners... which means we usually get to use a majority of our movers, etc for the support as well (but obviously I tend to go easy on making it look very "cool").

 

WRT headliners bringing LD's, in my current (non freelancing) venue, tend to see about half-and-half, although recently more are leaning towards inhouse LX...

 

And LDing... I don't know. I like to think I "design" even when I have very fine boundaries to work within. Sometimes I can design the rig myself, but the tour manager still demands certain colours for certain songs, etc, so that doesn't feel like designing to me. Alternatively, if I'm using a house rig but come up with some really cool looks that I haven't seen in that venue before, I like to think I designed them... *shrug*, who knows!

[paulears]

Every lampie seems to call him/herself an LD now - it's kind of a trend. If you takes somebody elses design as in position, equipment and colour, and then produce some nice looks with it, you're an operator - a creative one, but this isn't in my book 'design'. In the theatre world, it was and still is common for the in-house lx board op to get the LD credit for maybe the panto, music events or amateur shows where they get their chance to design from scratch using their venue kit and hired in extras. I suspect most of these really appreciate the difference between operating and design. The many music shows we do often bring in their LD. Some are excellent. One recently looked at the in house kit, and used it in a totally different way, with only a few colour changes and no altering of our generic rig. His ideas were really great (and we've of course stolen them already), it was proper lighting design. However, many of these LDs are clueless on the imagination front and produce broing lighting with the same rig.

 

If you can get the money, take it - but in an area of the country with very few proper music venues on the B circuit, forget the A - supports in our area almost pay to play!

[niclights]

and apart from 1 gig I can't think of a time when we haven't done a switchover

Must be something to do with the desk then, or maybe the programming. What can I say?! ;)

[Daniel]

Must be something to do with the desk then, or maybe the programming. What can I say?! ;)

:P

 

I think its more something to do with the fact that we have a pretty new desk, that has a lot of nice looks for our standard house rig, and their desk has a lot of nice looks for their touring rig... so we focus on using house rig, they focus on using touring rig and just add in bits of the house rig?

 

Shrug. ;)

[indyld]

Every lampie seems to call him/herself an LD now - it's kind of a trend.

 

Far worse for me is being introduced to Producer/Client/Money Man as the Lighting Designer when I just pitched up that morning to be presented with a pile of kit. No pre prod, no say in what, where and how. Perhaps I should include a contract that states "you are not entitled to call me the Lighting Designer unless you actually contract me to do a lighting design - and pay for it."

 

When people call me and say they want an LD, they often mean that they want a senior lampie. Someone with experience to make quick decisions on the day, run the crew and op the desk.

 

Maybe this is just the evolution of language.

[timmeh]

Maybe this is just the evolution of language.

 

Hi

 

More likely is people are deliberately misusing the term because 'LD' looks more impressive than 'lampy' on a CV.

 

Agree with what's been said, if you're given a blank canvas and a budget you're an LD, if you're given a load of kit and told to come up with your own plan you're an LD, if you just punch buttons into a desk and make it pretty then you're an operator. Why people think it's less kudos I have no idea; frequently I've met LDs who have no idea how to build a show, but they do understand what sort of looks the bands are after and what kit to spec, which is half the battle.

 

It is a team effort, after all. I don't look down on the people employed to focus par-cans and bolt truss together, just because their job description is 'less cool.'

 

In my experience (e.g. Glasto) I've been given a bunch of toys, some crew, and it's been down to me to design and build the rig, then program the show and run it for the whole of the weekend, and be expected to fix stuff if it breaks, all on my own. Which tends to be more fun than just doing just one particular task.

 

All the best

Timmeh