soundspider Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Hi Am looking into a powered FOH system for a church. Its pretty large, holds about 1000 people, has a gallery, and the system needs to be pretty powerful loud and punchy - bands, electric guitars, bass guitars, the works going through it, so forget the church bit and think of a rock set-up. Thinking about a Mackie system - was originally thinking SWA1801'2 with SR1521 tops, but having researched a bit I think this is massive overkill. How does 2 SWA1501's with maybe 4 SRM 450's on top sound? Thinking 4 tops more for dispersion and coverage rather than volume. Again is this just too much? Are there any other alternatives in that price range (around £2-2.5k)? And am I going to have issues with power supply? We'll probably take an electrician's advice, but if I even had an idea of how much wattage I was able to push without blowing the place apart, it would be handy! Thanks, Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fogg Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 You will probably get a few people on here saying the same thing but its not wattage you want to look for. You want to be looking at the efficiency of the cabinet and the spl. Anyway, the mackie stuff you are talking about is good stuff and will probably do the job fine. I use alot of makie cabs at work, our main theatre uses a makie fussion system, and other smaller parts of the venue we have srm450 amd swa 1501. I find the srm450 a great cab (the older italian versions are better so the second hand market may be a good choice) and the swa1501 sound pretty damn big for such a small cab. They are easy to set up give a great sound. You were talking about 2 swa 1501 and 4 srm 450, I think you would be better of going with the swa 1801 if you want to run 4 srm 450. But to tell you the truth the venue at work is quite a wide deep room and 2 450's cover it pretty well, if I had a choice I would run 1801's instead of the 1501's just to give a bit more umphh towards the back of the room. I am sure there will be some more people coming along to give some much more usefull advice! But I know alot of people on here really do like the srm 450's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveP Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 And am I going to have issues with power supply? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 With the utmost respect, designing an installed system for a 1000 seat venue (complete with gallery) is not a job for an amateur or a beginner. Although the word "consultant" often has nasty connotations, that's exactly what you need. I suggest you read THIS ARTICLE by an American audio specialist on exactly this topic. To try and answer your questions about wattage and specific speakers (and maybe give you an idea as to what you're up against): It's impossible to answer your wattage question. Using cheap (and not so cheerful) amateur speakers could probably soak up as much as four times the power for the same sound level as you could get away with using highly efficient, highly professional boxes. The Mackies you mention aren't really suitable to stack or array. You will almost certainly end up with hot spots and other areas where there are phase cancellations. At best, you'll have a muddy, unclear sound due to minor time differences . (This is not to put down the Mackies...they're fine speakers for the "speaker on a stick" application they're designed for.) Finally, at the risk of being the depressing sceptic, I don't think you have a hope in you-know-where of getting a "powerful, loud and punchy" system for a 1000 seater (with balconey) with a £2.5K budget. Sorry. Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Just to echo Bobbsy's advice... I design systems for churches, and I would suggest that for the most part getting it loud is quite easy. The gear you've mentioned (or even enough soundlab £30 boxes) could be "loud" enough. Unsurprisingly, this isn't the only criteria for a church system. Proper defined coverage of all of the required seating areas is essential. Minimal seat to seat variation in level and spectral response is important. Intelligibility (preferably as a measured, defined quantity using STI, STIPA or RASTI if you have to) is desperately important. There are many other factors to do with the psychoacoustics of sound systems. It is not clear that the Mackies will fulfill these wider set of needs. This isn't knocking Mackie, but recognising that it may not be the right tool. I'm aware that not every church install considers these design parameters, but that's often the reason why churches aren't happy with their systems, and keep changing them when they can afford it. The bottom line is that you must work out what is needed for your specific space and specific needs, then select the speaker system that can fulfill that role, not choose a speaker based on a single characteristic (e.g. the right 'name', really 'loud', 'great sound', or 'I can get it cheap from a mate') If you do not have the skill and knowledge to do this, then might I suggest you find either a consultant (someone who designs, but doesn't sell or install) or a design & installation company with a proven track record in the contemporary church market. Lastly, it's unlikely that your present budget will do what you hope to achieve. It's time to get your leadership to address some fundamental issues of stewardship, fitness for purpose and actual value for money (as opposed to 'cheap'). Sorry if this appears negative, but I could write the same e-mail to dozens of really nice, well meaning people at churches across the UK... Simon Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeCTG Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 I would have to agree with simon. The best thing for you to do would be to seek professional advice or you could end up with a bad sounding system, and knowing people at church they will be quick to complain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 and knowing people at church they will be quick to complain. any more than (say) someone who has paid a lot of money for a West end show? I think the problems arise because of the (often) difficult acoustic environment, the architectural restrictions, the wide range of programme material, the range of expertise and the differences in expectation from the listeners... I'm not sure if "churchgoers" as a specific sound system listening group are more prone to complaining than any other similar socioeconomic group ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 I suspect that they do. They are trying to hear a sermon that they haven't heard before, in difficult acoustics and where they have the "ear" of the production team and performer. In contrast, a West End musical is possibly well known to them, in a theatre with reasonable acoustics and a production team that long ago moved on to the next project, leaving operators behind whose job it is is to repeat performances accurately. (Not intended to denigrate operators) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 I suggest you read ...... For various reasons, I would respectfully suggest reading the original article by Jim Brown . There is ongoing debate regarding some of the methods proposed by the person Bobbsy linked to.Rather than discuss this publicly, if anyone needs to discuss it further (including the OP) please PM me. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbsy Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Ooops. I though I HAD linked to the Jim Brown original. I Googled "Jim Brown +"church sound", got that article, recognised the opening line and thought I was there! Not being directly involved in this end of the business, I'm not up on the debate Simon refers to, but can certainly endorse what Jim Brown says. Sorry for the confusion. (And now I have to read the second article side by side with Jim's to see how they differ since, superficially, they look the same--unless Simon has time to PM me about what's going on! Hint hint!) Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Presumably this system will be used to convey speech too, getting a system set up so that every seat can hear the pulpit well is crucial in a church. Like others have said, it's not just a case of getting a pair of big speakers at the front. Our church puts speech, video and band through their system, the building probably seats around 500, but they only use small speakers, three Nexo PS8's with two subs and a pile of 5 and 6" plastic tannoy boxes around the galleries and entrance area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Riley Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 I think you need to seriously do some sums. A rig to do justice to a contemporary church of 1000 people would be, at the very least, D&B C7, probably with a fair few fills to get the kind of sound you're looking for. These go second hand for about £12,000, and you'd need to add the flying hardware, and the cost of fill speakers and processing to that. So, say £15K as a ballpark starting point just for the boxes and amps if you want to cover that many people at 'contemporary' levels. £2k would get you a mackie 450 rig, with two 450s and two 1801s, which would cover about 350 people nicely when set up on stands at the front of the stage. This is all assuming that you're meeting in an acoustically ok modern building, not a big old parish church as well. One consultant/contractor for this sort of thing which is fairly priced and has a good track record is SFL group in Reading. M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete McCrea Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 It's often said churches by three sound systems:1) Their first system,2) Second System3) The right system Each of these costs money. Get a consultant in, and they'll be able to guide you, so even if you have to do it in phases, each will build on the previous equipment and make each step an investment, not something that will get ripped out and binned. For the sake of good stewardship, and accountability with the leadership, raises the very valid points that have been made above. If you make the info known to them, but they decide to push ahead with the wrong system, then there should be less potential for them having issue with the option you specified for them. In my view it makes sense to get an external contractor/consultant in. That way there are clearly marked client/supplier relationships that make trouble shooting and problem resolution easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Longer A Member 210514 Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 As a random aside... Don't forget that you also need to take into account the disability discrimination act... If you are considering a church install (as with any other install), you need to budget for a hearing aid induction loop as well, and integrate it with the PA. Not expensive compared to the PA, but worth considering. I would also like to second(3rd/4th) etc that you are unlikely to achieve what you need on a 2.5k budget! best wishes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevieR Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Coincidentally, I've just finished a demo/consultancy session this morning for a local church looking to improve their sound. According to the in-house tech (who is also a member on this board) this is their 3rd attempt to get it right but the last twice have been attempted on a low budget with compromises made. This time they are looking at high quality gear and are getting quotes from a few companies - including ourselves - which also provides a certain level of free consultancy. We brought in a range of boxes this morning and set up various combinations of mains / fills / delays to allow the client to hear what was best in the space. Perhaps you should get two or three local sound companies to do the same for you, although you may need to re-asses your budget. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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