Moving heads v. Generics

[James Remo]

Moderation: Please note that this has been split from another thread. This was not intended as a first post in a thread.

 

1] Loading a 30kg mover onto a bar or truss at working height is marginally harder than lobing on a 5kg S4

2] Shuttering off a s4 revolution, adb warp etc at the desk is much easier than climbing a ladder to the truss to shutter a generic. Plus if a shutter slips you don't have to wait for the coffee break to re-focus the lantern.

 

Yes there is a massive cost difference. Yes there is a large weight difference. I'm not going to be drawn into a movers are bad argument. Each lantern type has a specific job, and should be selected for the intended job alone.

[Nick S]

1] Loading a 30kg mover onto a bar or truss at working height is marginally harder than lobing on a 5kg S4

 

That very much depends how you're getting to working height. If you're on a Genie - yes. If you're up an A-Frame...really, no.

 

I can't see any logic in the above quoted statement.

 

I can - the believe the point was if you can use a S4 in place of a mover without any loss of quality or effect, use a S4. Sure, fairly obvious point, but the logic is there.

[James Remo]

My dear chap, thank you for pointing this out in a more eloquent way. But I must point out to you that what I refer to as "working height" is in fact when the truss is 3ft or so off the floor. "Trim height" would require access via lift or ladder. Yes, a s4 with all the bells and whistles can do whatever a mover can do (with the exception of movement perhaps? the clue here is in the slang for them...), the point I was making was that a mover could do it all REMOTELY, without needing to access the instrument whilst at height. And that rather than it, it is actually easier (and perhaps safer?) due to the lack of working at height required.

[Ynot]

Ah, but a moving head cannot replace several generic lanterns in all cases.

For example, I use a good half dozen or more lanterns for my FoH specials inventory - these are simply area spots used for the majority of shows. I could in theory replace some of these with a moving head, BUT only if I don't need more than one up at any time, and the direction from which I want the light to come from doesn't change.

 

Plus, I can hire in maybe a dozen S4 profiles for the cost of hiring in just one Mac 500...

 

So add the fact that the Mac will take more hanging (there aren't going to be too many theatre venues that have every location on a power winched barrel), and the rest, and this all adds up to the fact that movers as a rule WILL NOT replace generic lanterns for a LONG time to come!

 

;)

[James Remo]

Ah, but a moving head cannot replace several generic lanterns in all cases.

Not a point I was making... I said

Each lantern type has a specific job, and should be selected for the intended job alone.

 

Plus, I can hire in maybe a dozen S4 profiles for the cost of hiring in just one Mac 500...

Yes there is a massive cost difference

 

movers as a rule WILL NOT replace generic lanterns for a LONG time to come!

A fact I do not dispute, and wholeheartedly embrace!

 

Glad to see we agree ;)

[jimbo7744]

My post was referring to conferences in particular.

 

A) having the budget to get S4 Revolutions or ADB Warps would be fantastic but not realistic

B) when you have 4 or more graphics on a set, thats 120+Kg of movers

C) it would also be fantastic to have truss or lighting bars to hang all this off. Lots of venues don't even have hanging points and most often you lucky to get 2 badly maintained Manfrotto wind-up stands which obviously wouldn't support or be safe with the loads your suggesting!

 

Generic fresnels and profiles all the way, truss+chain blocks = lots of effort and time. Think of the get out!

[James Remo]

Conference (a subject on which I have over 8 years of experience with a variety of av companies) is where the money is! Corporate world is where I first encountered movers and LED, because the clients like movement and changing colour and pattern! For example, one company I work for heavily invested in pulsar's chromabanks (70+ units, plus 100+ chroma pannels, 50+ chroma strip, 24 chroma spheres, 60+ chroma cans, etc) and no longer put out their 4 cell coda units. In fact, I managed to purchase a dozen of those "obsolete" (to the av company!!!) for the Youth Theatre I do production management and training for, at a fantastically low price. Would I spec the chromabank or similar for a theatre production? Unlikley. But for use as a cold source groundrow, lighting a set in corporate world? Hell yes.

Many corporate events include a gala dinner or awards show as part of their agenda. Movers are spec'ed almost as a rule. Many of these "smaller" events are rarely "designed" untill the kit comes off the truck. Yes most bigger events get designed and you get sent cad plans and the venue recieves a truss plot before the event, but I find the majority of conferences can be divided thus:-

 

Small

2 wind ups with a smattering of profiles and fresnels, giving a stage wash, lectern highlight and top table (or soft seating area)highlight.

Maybe some uplighting on set (be it a few par cans or led groundrow)

No plot provided - Functional lighting is requested

 

Medium

Bit of truss, couple of motors

profiles and fresnels as above

Set lighting (par cans or led groundrow again)

A couple of movers to do gobo washes/colour changes on set / provide colour and movement for awards stings / dinner "prettyness"

No design provided - "Make it look pretty" is the request

 

Large

Designed and working to a plan

Well, how big is your client's budget? I've certainly done big shows (400+ generics, 100+ movers, truss for days, 40 motor lifts) in corporate world, that use all the latest toys, BUT those toys are spec'ed for a reason. Like the s4 rev for instance. Insted of calling back a rigger for a re-focus when the client logos change at lunchtime, spec a s4 rev, re-plot at the desk, no need for climbing or access kit to be driven into (a now carpeted) arena.

 

So it's again a case of horses for courses, which is the really important point to take form all this meandering debate about the use of movers in theatre, corporate, tv, film, rock 'n' roll, religous worship, et cetera, ad infinitum, amen!

 

 

PS. The gigs I love at the moment are the small meetings I'm doing for a swiss bank. 2 smartbars loaded each with 2 s4Jr and 2 s4parnell (loaded with 575w fittings) with a 2496 smartfade (in one flight case), 6 chroma banks (paired in flightcases) and a pair of wind ups (paired in a flight case). 5 boxes, 3x 13a supplies required, all required cables fit into kit flight cases. Half hour to rig, but rig call is 2.5 hrs before gig starts, meaning I can watch a film before the conference starts. Same money as a full on job. Any need for more kit? No. As Jimbo says, think of the get out!

[Ynot]

Conference (a subject on which I have over 8 years of experience with a variety of av companies) is where the money is! Corporate world is where I first encountered movers and LED, because the clients like movement and changing colour and pattern!

And therein lies the key to your argument!

A corporate 'gig' is not like a theatre event in that it's seldom going to be for a paying audience - the corporation foots the bill, and often, I gather, will write off a lot of tech-style stuff to tax. Because of that they may well be able to afford lots more fancy stuff that isn't really necessary to the job in hand were it being approached as a theatre style gig.

 

I've lost count of the conferences and seminars I've been to in my day job where I've looked around at the kit being used to create what's loosely called 'atmosphere'. Moving heads sitting on the deck that just do that - sit - shining a single colour rotating gobo up a wall. LED kit just washing another wall with a variety of colours.

 

I'm sure some of these have been planned beforehand, but many 9as you suggest) just get 'designed' on the day.

 

That is the BIG difference in whether a mover could or indeed should be considered for use in a theatre show.

 

Chalk & cheese, I'm afraid.

;)

[jimbo7744]

I couldn't agree more!

 

I wish that my client's would think of other movers than Mac 500/250's (now most have come round to spec'ing Entours) and I do work for large London based lighting suppliers.

 

My experience is that these are the most cost effective to mark up, and occasionally a Mac 2k will get thrown in, but on the whole, people use what they have in stock, and only on the very large job's do nice kit get ordered in, and thats only if they have asked someone before quoting.

 

Unfortunately, none of my clients own S4 revolutions or ADB Warps. Mac's and Robe are the norm.

 

Maybe once a year I get to play with VL's, or High End etc.

 

If it saves me climbing a ladder or scaff tower then bring it on!

[James Remo]

Snip

And therein lies the key to your argument!

Snip

That is the BIG difference in whether a mover could or indeed should be considered for use in a theatre show.

Snip

My argument, Tony, is right tool for the right job, for the right reasons. NOT discounting anything without looking at all possibilities! I embrace design, it's sadly lacking from corporate gigs, which aren't high Art. You seam to have dismissed me as a corporate ######, who does not ever partake in the art that is theatre lighting.

Movers SHOULD be considered for use in a theatre show! TW-1 - designed primarily for theatre. ADB Warp - designed primarily for theatre. S4rev - designed primarily for theatre. Chalk and cheese? More like camenbert and brie. Different flavours of the same thing. The way in which we use these instruments is what the discussion should be. Technology for the sake of it? No thanks. But as part of a design? For a specific reason? Very handy! If budget allows.....

[Ynot]

My argument, Tony, is right tool for the right job, for the right reasons. NOT discounting anything without looking at all possibilities! I embrace design, it's sadly lacking from corporate gigs, which aren't high Art. You seam to have dismissed me as a corporate ######, who does not ever partake in the art that is theatre lighting.

Movers SHOULD be considered for use in a theatre show! TW-1 - designed primarily for theatre. ADB Warp - designed primarily for theatre. S4rev - designed primarily for theatre. Chalk and cheese? More like camenbert and brie. Different flavours of the same thing. The way in which we use these instruments is what the discussion should be. Technology for the sake of it? No thanks. But as part of a design? For a specific reason? Very handy! If budget allows.....

Hmmm...

Actually, no - I haven't dismissed you as a corporate whatever, but you ARE right (and we do seem to agree) that corporate 'design' is pretty much 'throw whatever you have at it' sort of scenarios.

 

I totally agree that movers do indeed have a place in theatre - I am in fact using two Mac 500's in my panto rig next week, with our own Goldenscan 3's, plus most (if not all) of our LED pars. But I doubt that the punters will see the lights physically move at any stage (other than maybe a slowly rotating gobo) because that's not what I see them being useful for here. I have design ideas that will be realised by the movers - some of which will be something that maybe a fixed profile could do, others likely not so easily. But they'll sit alongside my 21 standard FoH profiles, plus probably a dozen or so other dedicated S4's and SL's etc.

For our regular "Stars in their Eyes" type show in April, I'll bring in half a dozen 250 Entours, (or similar) 8 or 9 Pin Scans, again all the LEDs and a few other specific effects, and yes - THERE you'll see loads of flishy-flashy stuff.

 

But when I referred to chalk & cheese, I mean NOT the instruments, but the types of event - corporate vs theatre.

[James Remo]

Right.......

 

Despite saying in my first post

I'm not going to be drawn into a movers are bad argument

it seems that is what the mods think this is, as shown by their choice of topic title. Out of context my first post doesn't scan correctly, so here are my original intentions. jimbo7744 made the point that

Sod having to rig and try to shutter off a mover around a clients logo on a set!

which I hoped I had pointed out was an illogical statement, for reasons you can see above.

 

One of the stated aims of this forum is to provide a useful reference tool for those persons interested and involved in lighting. There are often thought provoking discussions on subjects of interest to me, which is why I frequent this forum. Unfortunately there are also a high number of threads that go along the lines of:

 

I'm looking to buy some movers

Why do you want movers? There is no application for them in theatre.

Insert rambling discussion here that never seems to go anywhere.

 

So, when I saw a point that I could not agree with, I felt the need to interject and put across my viewpoint. I don't want to have the movers vs. generics debate because it can not come to a conclusion, because the answer is both, either or none, depending on the situation. (And by none I have done totally dark productions and daylight productions, both not requiring any lighting.)

 

So it comes down to the design. I am glad to see that even Tony (who it seems to be perhaps the staunchest supporter of the "movers are bad" school) is embracing the technology available to him to create the desired effect for his shows. And here might be a surprising revelation. I have never used LED or even a mover whilst working on a theatre production! (They weren't so available when I was working in theatre, and never having worked on panto, and very few dance pieces) But I have used plenty of them in other areas of lighting. The whole point is to use the best tool for the job to achieve the desired outcome. For all the right reasons.

 

As for the design element of corporate gigs, I see it as possibly more of a Crystal Maze type challenge. You have three hours to make this set/awards do/gala dinner look good with only the instruments that come on the back of the truck. So you have a couple of "classic" (read: cheesy) looks that you can throw up. Not having the "right" tools for the job can result in you having to be more creative with the tools at your disposal. You don't get the (seemingly) endless rehearsal time, plotting time, tech rehearsal, dress rehearsal to polish your looks and focus. So whilst you say theatre and corporate is chalk and cheese, yes I can see your point. But at the end of the day no matter what the gig is, we are shining beams of light at stuff. No matter how you get there the end result is the same. Something gets lit.

[jimbo7744]

Illogical statement if you have an endless budget and access to 'theatrical intended' lighting. Should tungsten lamps become unavailable in the next few years, I doubt S4 rev's, ADB Warps etc will be on the majority of AV companies list of hire stock.

 

Yes when you open the truck, what you see is what you get to play with, but as you pointed out in your earlier post, these sort of fixtures only end up on the "high end" gigs, not your run of the mill 150-400 person conferences, unless it's a very big blue chip client.

 

Personally I would prefer to rig 4 or 6 S4 zooms to light some graphics and re-focus during the coffee break than try to get large bulky movers in flight cases through the loading dock, into the lift (if they have one) probably through the kitchen, along the corridor, in to the room and then go back down to start the several trips of carrying the truss up the stairs.

 

As you said, horses for courses, but at the the same time, "something gets lit".....

 

Oh and motor's for the truss are very very nice, but not common when working on a budget and working with points of SWL 100Kg. No need to go to the gym this week huh! <_<

 

edit due to poor spelling

[Ynot]

Despite saying in my first post

I'm not going to be drawn into a movers are bad argument

Actually, for what it's worth, I didn't see it as a 'movers bad' argument.

As I see it we're discussing something on the lines of whether a mover could (or maybe should) be used to replace the generic profile.

Unfortunately there are also a high number of threads that go along the lines of:

 

I'm looking to buy some movers

Why do you want movers? There is no application for them in theatre.

Insert rambling discussion here that never seems to go anywhere.

Again, I don't see that statement in this thread. I'd go as far as saying I can't recall the last time it WAS said on the BR. What IS discussed regularly is the situation where school 'A' or teenager 'B' etc decide they want to spend their money (or their parents'!) and immediately jump onto the movers bandwagon. But this is NOT really one of those times, I feel.

So it comes down to the design. I am glad to see that even Tony (who it seems to be perhaps the staunchest supporter of the "movers are bad" school) is embracing the technology available to him to create the desired effect for his shows.

I think I resent this obvservation!

I don't see myself as a 'movers are bad' supporter in ANY way! I've used movers in varying degrees for almost 10 years - admittedly in an am-dram situation, but on a fairly regular basis. I do however firmly believe in the right tool for the job, and with theatre that isn't always the case with schools and over-keen teenagers!

 

I think you may need to re-read some of what I've posted...! <_<

[indyld]

For example, one company I work for heavily invested in pulsar's chromabanks (70+ units, plus 100+ chroma pannels, 50+ chroma strip, 24 chroma spheres, 60+ chroma cans, etc) and no longer put out their 4 cell coda units.

 

Of course they don't, the company has just bought all that expensive kit and it has to pay for itself before it breaks/becomes obsolete.

 

/interrupt minor rant before it get's out of hand.

 

 

Yes, it is horses for courses. I sometimes wish that clients (or the people who sell to them) could think of something a bit more original (or, indeed "lighting appropriate") than 4 x Mac250 Entours and a run of Chromabanks. Still, with most corporate gig being built in record time and no proper spec or much pre-production, it's just as well we can make it up when we get there using the desk.

 

Even if those washlights, doing blue all day, might just as well be Floorcans. As a corporate tart, I like nothing better than a good financial results meeting the city. It pays the bills in what is, after all, only a job.

 

Some thoughts:

 

From a lighting design point of view, movers are not as flexible as they seem. Most of the colours they do are, at any given point, inappropriate. Many shows don't need a shutter strobe, whirling spiral gobos or any waggling around. So that might leave a spotlight that can point here or here or there.

 

As has been said, that's great if you don't need them all on at once. And if they can all come from the same point in space, fine. But lighting design is as much about where the light comes from as what it hits when get's to the other end. Source and Target.

 

I often feel the need to reach out to upcoming LD's and say:

 

"Forget about equipment and think about lighting".

 

It's all about the light, man.