Help Chosing Sound System

[smalljoshua]

First of all the OP says they need a "High SPL" system. Mention playing of music and wireless mics. Budget is mentioned. No details of the room, although we can infer that it's a school hall. No mention of size, height, construction etc. No real description of the type of events that will be hosted.

The room is about 20m deep 12m wide and 12m high all brick construction with all hardwood floor no raised stage and only black curtains covering the rear wall which is white for projection.

 

 

Some sketchy description of the existing kit, but no details. Is it really all "unbranded"? Is there no label at all? Or is it just a label that isn't recognised? And I doubt that it's all "connected in series".

The equipment is truly unbranded no label at all not even on the back saying the power handling (75w RMS) they are connected in seres I asked to see the paperwork that was given to the school it states "6 75w RMS Speakers connected in series Connected to 600w Amplifier".

 

 

Then we get mention of the "clueless IT technician". I wonder if he reads this forum. Or if anyone will forward that posting to him. The OP mentions his school in his profile, it took me about 20 seconds to find out the It technician's name. How To Make Friends And Influence People.

This IT technician is very good at what he does but he has been told by teachers and students (myself included) that when it comes to Sound he is clueless (and he agrees with us, he just doesn't want to do it differently).

 

 

The next day we get another post, with a rather different perspective - more "humph" (whatever that is). We're now told that the existing kit (which yesterday was unbranded rubbish operated by a clueless technician) may well be perfectly adequate (but still no details on what it actually is!) and all that is required is subs & crossover. Hmmm..... does anyone who made that decision actually know what they're talking about?

The post did have a different perspective that is because I decided to ask the head teacher again just to clarify things.

She said and I quote "It lacks Punch, It needs more Volume" I then asked "Do you mean more Low notes from the music" and she Replied "Yes thats what I mean they need more Volume". Yes If operated Wrongly It sounds Rubbish but so will a £40000 system If he operates it. I personally made that decision and have done so after clarifying things with the head

 

 

Write down exactly what you (and by this I mean the school authorities - the people with the authority to spend the budget) feel the system will be required to do, what is deficient in the current system, and what they would hope to gain from a new install. This is actually a very useful exercise - putting it down on paper forces people to think more carefully about what they're trying to achieve rather than making vague statements about "more SPL" and "more humph".

I have written down what is requested/wrong with the current system and checked that list with the Head Teacher she has said that is what she wants.

 

 

I sit on a school board (well, I did until recently - they've now been abolished in scotland) - I can imagine the reaction we would have had if someone had asked our head about a spend of several thousand pounds on technical equipment and if he had replied "Well, we asked one of the pupils to specify something. He didn't know much about it, but went onto an internet forum, and asked some people who he'd never met, and who had never seen the venue, what to buy....."

The governing body has asked me to chose a system because I am the reason that the school is getting the money. I wrote a 6 page letter to the Arts Department within the city council are in the process to giv the school betheen £10-£15,000 to Upgrade the Drama Studio Space. Some of which has been spent on a new lighting desk. I have successfully specified everything else but have always become 'unstuck' on speakers and amps.

 

I was just looking for Refinement down to two or three makes of amp, speakers and crossover.

 

Josh

[Rob_Beech]

Ok, so you've been away and done these things, which helps, A crossover another amp and 2 or 4 subs may help the system. But it may only be its setup, you need to look at the components yourself and see if there is anything you can do to improve things, if you're unsure, perhaps someone else there does know about it.

 

If this person is clueless (not in a nasty way) and admits this, and you always come unstuck when it comes to speakers and amps then who exactly is going to operate this system when the money has been spent, the stuff installed and its operational?

 

It seems alot of people here assume that you need to spend 10 times the money to get a reasonable system in this room, I don't quite think its that bad. I think the budget you spec is very tight and you weren't quite clear with the etc etc which could have meant anything. But if it turns out the cabinets you have already are useable and you need to add a pair of subs, a crossover, and an amp to the system to add LF then I shouldn't see why that woudln't come in budget. Afterall, why buy a pair of TSW218's of an E45 and an omnidrive brand new if your current speakers appear to do the job but lack LF, but are .... unbranded..

 

Rob

[smalljoshua]

Ok, so you've been away and done these things, which helps, A crossover another amp and 2 or 4 subs may help the system. But it may only be its setup, you need to look at the components yourself and see if there is anything you can do to improve things, if you're unsure, perhaps someone else there does know about it.

 

If this person is clueless (not in a nasty way) and admits this, and you always come unstuck when it comes to speakers and amps then who exactly is going to operate this system when the money has been spent, the stuff installed and its operational?

 

It seems alot of people here assume that you need to spend 10 times the money to get a reasonable system in this room, I don't quite think its that bad. I think the budget you spec is very tight and you weren't quite clear with the etc etc which could have meant anything. But if it turns out the cabinets you have already are useable and you need to add a pair of subs, a crossover, and an amp to the system to add LF then I shouldn't see why that woudln't come in budget. Afterall, why buy a pair of TSW218's of an E45 and an omnidrive brand new if your current speakers appear to do the job but lack LF, but are .... unbranded..

 

Rob

Thank you rob you are the first person to actually understand my going on's So what would people reccoment?

• 
  

• 1 Sub in Mono or 2 in Stereo?
  
• Active or Passive?
  
• What Brands?
  
• Crossover Make/Model?
  
• Amp&Speaker Models?
  

To be honest thinking back the speakers have a Flat bit on the grill where there might have once been brand but it has been removed.

So even though they may have been branded at one time but the installer has decided otherwise.

[bruce]

The room is about 20m deep 12m wide and 12m high all brick construction with all hardwood floor no raised stage and only black curtains covering the rear wall which is white for projection.

Now we're getting somewhere - that's the sort of info that should have been in the original post. It still doesn't tie in with the "High SPL" quote, which I would associate with nightclubs & rock concerts, rather thana school assembly :)

The equipment is truly unbranded no label at all not even on the back saying the power handling (75w RMS) they are connected in seres I asked to see the paperwork that was given to the school it states "6 75w RMS Speakers connected in series Connected to 600w Amplifier".

Doesn't sound too promising...

Write down exactly what you (and by this I mean the school authorities - the people with the authority to spend the budget) feel the system will be required to do, what is deficient in the current system, and what they would hope to gain from a new install. This is actually a very useful exercise - putting it down on paper forces people to think more carefully about what they're trying to achieve rather than making vague statements about "more SPL" and "more humph".

I have written down what is requested/wrong with the current system and checked that list with the Head Teacher she has said that is what she wants.

 

The governing body has asked me to chose a system because I am the reason that the school is getting the money.

It's fantastic that you've been instrumental in getting this funding for the school. However, that doesn't necessarily make you the best person to specify what needs to be installed. I realise that this is a project close to your heart, but the best way to obtain long-term value from it is to ensure that the capital is spent wisely. Think of yourself as a "facilitator", but leave the actual specification and design to the pros. You (and by that I mean the school) give them a "statement of need" and let them propose something from that.

 

Let me give you an example. Suppose someone on this forum were to say "you need a pair of GigaWatt Megablaster 12" cabs, a pair of BigBass subs, a SooperSonix 1200W amp and a HiLo Crossover", and a few others were to chip in with "yeah, that sounds like a decent system".

 

You then go to your favourite supplier, give them this shopping list and they install it. And it sound awful. What do you do?

 

If you go back to your supplier saying "this sounds pants", they'll say "yes we know. But it's precisely what you asked us to install. Sorry, but tough luck."

 

 

However, suppose you had gone to that same supplier saying "I need a system for ... which will be used for events such as ..... but will not be used for events such as .....the system must provide acceptable audio levels (as defined below) for speech/drama/music replay/whatever...must be housed in a rack cabinet....simple to operate.... a full operations&maintenance manual must be provided, and a 1-hour training session provided after installation." In real life, this spec would probably run to a couple of pages, and it's the sort of thing that the installers here on the BR could probably help you with, cos they see them every day

 

If you had specified the system that way, the supplier will use their experience and skill to design an appropriate system. There's still a chance that they may still instal the Gigawatt Megablasters. And it may still sound awful. But this time you can say "This sounds pants, it doesn't meet the spec, take it away, I'm not paying you."

 

So what I'm saying is... specify what you want the system to do, but unless you really know what you're doing, don't specify the components or design - that just needlessly restricts the suppliers, and ultimately compromises what you're trying to achieve.

[smalljoshua]

However, suppose you had gone to that same supplier saying "I need a system for ... which will be used for events such as ..... but will not be used for events such as .....the system must provide acceptable audio levels (as defined below) for speech/drama/music replay/whatever...must be housed in a rack cabinet....simple to operate.... a full operations&maintenance manual must be provided, and a 1-hour training session provided after installation." In real life, this spec would probably run to a couple of pages, and it's the sort of thing that the installers here on the BR could probably help you with, cos they see them every day

 

If you had specified the system that way, the supplier will use their experience and skill to design an appropriate system. There's still a chance that they may still instal the Gigawatt Megablasters. And it may still sound awful. But this time you can say "This sounds pants, it doesn't meet the spec, take it away, I'm not paying you."

 

So what I'm saying is... specify what you want the system to do, but unless you've got a really good reason to do so, don't specify the components or design - that just needlessly restricts the suppliers.

I will probably ask Stage to Quote us because the school is more likely to say we will go with that than with another company.

 

Thanks for your help, will post back when I have got an update.

Josh

[johnhuson]

I will probably ask Stage to Quote us because the school is more likely to say we will go with that than with another company.

 

Just out of curiosity why do you think the school is more likely to go with a quote from Stage Electrics than from anyone else?

 

Also from my experience of buying in education it's very often necessary to get at least three quotes for a lot of expenditure (particularly for installation type work), although with the budget you suggest this might fall under the threshold. If it does I would very strongly you have several people come in and discuss what you might need.

 

Do also make sure they visit your school and not just supply you with a quote from a written specification.

[smalljoshua]

I will probably ask Stage to Quote us because the school is more likely to say we will go with that than with another company.

 

Just out of curiosity why do you think the school is more likely to go with a quote from Stage Electrics than from anyone else?

 

Also from my experience of buying in education it's very often necessary to get at least three quotes for a lot of expenditure (particularly for installation type work), although with the budget you suggest this might fall under the threshold. If it does I would very strongly you have several people come in and discuss what you might need.

 

Do also make sure they visit your school and not just supply you with a quote from a written specification.

Because the origional 1980's install is done by stage-electrics and they come in every other year to replace bulbs in lanterns and keep the lanterns working.

Thanks for the advice.

Josh

[Rob_Beech]

a ) Lamps

 

b ) Whilst you may have a good relationship with Stage Electrics and there is no reason not to IMO it doesn't mean that they're the only company suitable for the job. Sort out what you require and what you don't require as people mention above, and then put this to several companies in the area or further a field. Have a look at what they say to you, you may find similar systems with perhaps just different brands but pretty much doing the same thing or you may find something slightly different. You then need to look at these systems and you can ask on here for peoples opinions. This doesn't mean saying Are megablaster 12's any good, what it means is, using this topic to ask further questions.

 

You'll probably find that most people come back with similar ideas, but if a company comes back with a quote for 3 times the number of speakers you have to ask yourself why they think it would be necessary, similarly if someone suggests a pair of control 1's.