ryansever Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Hello! I just signed up for the Blue Room but I'm a long time reader! I've got a couple questions I was hoping I could find answers to. Background: I'm deciding whether or not to take a job providing lighting for a fashion show. I've got a pretty good background in theater lighting, and I've done several small fashion shows before. This particular show is on a stage 48'x24' with a 8'x32' catwalk coming out the center. The stage will be about 3' high. This event is not in a theater, but a hotel ballroom. The ceilings are around 20'-25' high. The budget is very limited (around $4000). The questions I have are in different categories, but I've decided not to cross post, as I assume most people read different sections anyway. LightingFor this particular show, I am going to need (for sure) 4 color changers and 4 intelligent lights, probably both HES fixtures. The color changers will light translucent "pillars" on stage, from the inside out. The intelligent lights will project gobos onto the pillars to enhance the atmosphere at different parts of the show. The remaining lights will be PARs. The stage and catwalk will be lit MOSTLY white, but the stage needs the ability to change colors. I am thinking about using several sets of PARs to achieve the color changing effect.How many PARs (per color) should be used for a stage 48' wide?How many should be positioned in the back of the stage facing forwards to eliminate shadows?On the runway, if there are truss pieces run across either side of the 8' wide runway about 10'-15' above ground (stage) level, how many PARs should be used for a total length of 32'? (or how far apart should they be spaced?)PowerFor the lighting, I'm going to need to provide my own power distribution. I'll be provided with camlock plugs for 3phase @ either 200 or 400amps. I'm familiar with the basic power issues, such as circuit loads, cable gauges, etc.How are fixtures normally powered when they're hung on a truss? Ie/ in a theater, the electrical is more or less hidden from the public. Because I'm using (ceiling-hung) truss, do I need to run electrical up to the truss behind the stage, then from there across to other trusses? The truss segments aren't all connected. Should they be? (See Truss)I'm most familiar with twist-lock plugs, Edison plugs, and stage pin plugs. With a power distribution system, I understand that I usually have the option to use Socapex cable to carry 6 circuits at one time. Is there anything ‘special' about these cables or do they pretty much act like a multi-conductor extension cable that requires either a special outlet or the use of break-in and break-out cables?Is Socapex the "best" choice of cable to use for wiring up several trusses of lights?Truss/RiggingI'm thinking about using 12" box truss sections each 8' long. For a 48' stage, I figure I'll need 6 sections (48') on both the front and back of the stage. I'll also need between 4-5 sections (per side) for the catwalk as it's undecided whether the catwalk will be 32' or 40' long. At the end of the catwalk I'm going to have a single truss stick for front lighting.The hotel provides ceiling mount points. I've been instructed to use chain hoists to raise/lower the truss once all the lighting is in place. The hotel staff will actually hang whatever I need from their mount points. How do I use chain hoists? Do they clip on to the mount point on the ceiling then attach to a mount point on the truss? Where does the extra chain go when the truss is fully raised?How many chain hoists do I need per truss span? One on each end? Spans range from 8' to 48'.What special hardware do I need to attach the chain hoists to either the ceiling mounting points or the truss? What additional safety measures must be taken? I don't know anything about hanging truss. I know very little about ground support truss in a "production" environment. How safe is it for me to be doing this?While I have a lot of theater experience, having to distribute my own power, hang my own truss, etc. is very different. I'm signed up to take several training courses in stage rigging and electrics in the near future, and as much as I would love to take this job, I don't know if it's the best idea; mainly because of the issues surround the safe rigging of truss. The company that would like me to do this event has many different events throughout the year, and securing this event would get my foot in the door for lots more work. If I decide against taking this job, does anybody have some suggestions as to what I should tell the client? I don't want to flat out say "I can't." because I know I'll be able to very soon. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Ryan Here's a sketch of where my truss pieces are going to be. Note the 5 individual spans (2 on stage, 2 for catwalk, 1 in front) - none of which are connected to each other (each using 2 chain hoists?) ____________________________________ |''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''| | | | | | | | | | | | | |_____________| |_____________| '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' :| |: : = catwalk :| |: ' = stage :| |: :| |: :| |: :| |: :| |: :[______]: '''''''''' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shez Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I don't know anything about hanging truss. I know very little about ground support truss in a "production" environment. How safe is it for me to be doing this? Not at all safe. Don't even think about taking this on on your own. If you want to take on the job, subcontract a rigger to deal with the rigging for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonny DMX Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 For this particular show, I am going to need (for sure) 4 color changers and 4 intelligent lights, probably both HES fixtures. Why HES? There may be other manufacturers that would suit your budget better? How many PARs (per color) should be used for a stage 48' wide? How long is a piece of string?! You could use anything from 4 lights per colour up! surly its a question of budget, power and weight loading. You could use 6 Pars with scrollers to give you more colour options for less lights? Is Socapex the "best" choice of cable to use for wiring up several trusses of lights? Socapex refers to the connector type, not the cable. Will you be using pars on IWBs? or pars rigged as singles? How do I use chain hoists?Do they clip on to the mount point on the ceiling then attach to a mount point on the truss? Where does the extra chain go when the truss is fully raised? How many chain hoists do I need per truss span? What special hardware do I need to attach the chain hoists to either the ceiling mounting points or the truss? What additional safety measures must be taken? DO NOT DO THIS SHOW ON YOUR OWN!!! Do you have public liability insurance? It sounds like you may need it! I would strongly recommend that you get a company that knows what they are doing to do this show then ask if you can help so you can learn how a show like this is done properly. If you are worried about loosing the work in future and are adamant that you take on this job; as an absolute minimum I would recommend that you employ a freelancer who knows what they are doing and watch and learn and ask questions as you work with them. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryson Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 LightingHow many PARs (per color) should be used for a stage 48' wide?How many should be positioned in the back of the stage facing forwards to eliminate shadows?On the runway, if there are truss pieces run across either side of the 8' wide runway about 10'-15' above ground (stage) level, how many PARs should be used for a total length of 32'? (or how far apart should they be spaced?)Not wishing to do your work for you... The beam angles of the various par lamps are available here. Get yourself a scale ruler and a protractor and draw the stage, then work out how many you need and from what distance. [[*]How are fixtures normally powered when they're hung on a truss? Ie/ in a theater, the electrical is more or less hidden from the public. Because I'm using (ceiling-hung) truss, do I need to run electrical up to the truss behind the stage, then from there across to other trusses?That would seem to be the sensible way to do it. Make sure you cable the truss neatly! [*]I'm most familiar with twist-lock plugs, Edison plugs, and stage pin plugs. With a power distribution system, I understand that I usually have the option to use Socapex cable to carry 6 circuits at one time. Is there anything ‘special' about these cables or do they pretty much act like a multi-conductor extension cable that requires either a special outlet or the use of break-in and break-out cables?Yes, that's exactly what they are. [*]Is Socapex the "best" choice of cable to use for wiring up several trusses of lights?Socapex, Lectriflex. Doesn't really matter - whatever you're hire comany can do. Socapex is little bit "neater" than Lecftriflex, but they're pretty much the same thing. I'm thinking about using 12" box truss sections each 8' long. For a 48' stage, I figure I'll need 6 sections (48') on both the front and back of the stage. I'll also need between 4-5 sections (per side) for the catwalk as it's undecided whether the catwalk will be 32' or 40' long. At the end of the catwalk I'm going to have a single truss stick for front lighting.The hotel provides ceiling mount points. I've been instructed to use chain hoists to raise/lower the truss once all the lighting is in place. The hotel staff will actually hang whatever I need from their mount points. How do I use chain hoists? Do they clip on to the mount point on the ceiling then attach to a mount point on the truss? Where does the extra chain go when the truss is fully raised?How many chain hoists do I need per truss span? One on each end? Spans range from 8' to 48'.What special hardware do I need to attach the chain hoists to either the ceiling mounting points or the truss? What additional safety measures must be taken? I don't know anything about hanging truss. I know very little about ground support truss in a "production" environment. How safe is it for me to be doing this?As someone has already said, not safe at all. Draw out (there's that scale ruler again) what layout of truss you need and subcontract a rigger to do it for you. If you're that worried about the practicalities, why not subcontract the ditribution and truss bits, and just be a designer/operator. You seem sound on what you want to achieve artistically, so why not stick to what you're good at?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tokm Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 What level of theatre have you been doing.. would have thought that if you were doing anything bigger than a local theatre, you'd have come across soca, mains distro & some basic truss rigging before.. As other have said, you really shouldn't do this on your own. If you want to design it all thats fine, but make sure you surround yourself with experienced freelancers who've done all these things before (for a job this size I'd say 3 more at least..) Not wishing to sound rude, but seeing as your lacking in experience on some things, perhaps even think about offering them some extra on top of their day rate to deal with coming up with the best way to implement your plans? Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seano Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Hello. Some comments on rigging:How do I use chain hoists? Do they clip on to the mount point on the ceiling then attach to a mount point on the truss? Where does the extra chain go when the truss is fully raised?On this occasion, I think you'd need to take someone along to use the hoists for you. It isn't hard at all, but has to be done right and its a really bad idea to try it for the first time ever in a 'pressure' situation.Yes, they are attached to the mount point on the ceiling (in the roof) - how that works depends on what exactly is up there. The 'mount point' on the truss is usually acheived by 'slinging' or 'wrapping' the truss with a roundsling (aka Spanset), or a pvc-coated steel wire rope. 'Hard-fixings' are also available, which consist of a short beam (usu steel or ally channel) with a pair of half-couplers to clamp to truss chords and a big eye to clip the motor hook or shackle a short dropper into. The chain goes into the chainbag - and can spill out unexpectedly and end up back on the floor if you're aware of what you're doing when you rig the motor down at the truss. How many chain hoists do I need per truss span? One on each end? Spans range from 8' to 48'.That depends mainly on the truss - you need to consult the manufacturers literature (or get in touch). Every truss has a maximum span, and at each different span distance there are maximum allowable loadings. Truss manufacturers usually publish these in the form of tables with maximum CPL (centre point load) and UDL (uniformly distributed load) listed against various spans - as the distance between supports decreases, so the permissible load increases for any given truss. Depending on the roof points, you may also be limited by their capacity. You're going to need some calculations to tell you exactly what load to expect to put on each point - this is especially important in your case because you have no experience, and therefore no 'gut feel' for the job. What special hardware do I need to attach the chain hoists to either the ceiling mounting points or the truss? What additional safety measures must be taken?Roof: Impossible to say from the information you have so far, that is a question to ask the venue (or better, something to be resolved by taking a rigger along with you to recce the place). Truss: Appropriate slings (spansets or 'trusswrap' steel ropes), or suitable hard fixings. Slings are usually the best way to go. In some venues it is policy that chain hoists should be bypassed once the truss is up at trim. There are a fair number of threads on 'truss safetys' here, though its something of a grey area and not something that experienced riggers are likely to discuss candidly on an open forum. There are some examples of 'best practice' in doing this in Chris Higgs' book. House policy varies from place to place throughout Europe - its common for 'safetys' to be required on all points in UK conference venues. In the US I have no idea - though its almost unheard of for them to be required in American concert venues, especially arenas. How safe is it for me to be doing this?It isn't. But its not rocket science, as long as you keep your wits about you while you work, you don't need a huge amount of training to cope with a relatively simple job. as much as I would love to take this job, I don't know if it's the best ideaCan you subcontract some more experienced people to help you out? If you can do that and break even, result - you don't gain financially but you will have got the job done, which will open doors for you, it seems. (This may not actually be the case - there are some clients out there that are only interested in 'least cost' options - and as long as there's someone with no experience willing to take a financial hit to get a foot in the door, you'll never be able to make a living. There will always be someone cheaper coming along behind you.) hthSean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 You have the "art" designed to your ideas, engage some help with the calculation and engineering. Do also please check the SWL of the hotel supplied points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryansever Posted June 28, 2007 Author Share Posted June 28, 2007 Thanks for all your helpful replies. I'm going to check into subcontracting the rigging to see if it meets my budget. The rigging doesn't seem like it would be too difficult, but as I have no experience with the actual hardware, I'd rather not learn on the job. I was hoping for an "it's easy" response (isn't everyone?) but I'm more worried about safety of the people/facility than financial gain. The theaters I've worked at pretty much use pre-run circuits that break off into twist lock or stage pin connections. I haven't had much experience with mains distro, but I figure it's not that different than what I'm used to, considering I'm familiar with power in general. As for lighting, I was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to how many PARs should be used for a given height and span. I know that my experience with theater lighting has made it really easy for me to just "know" the amount/type of lights I need for different scenarios, but having a stage in the open with lights in places I'm not used to confuses me. I'll figure it out. Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 If you feel the need to DIY then hire the stuff in early and get the feel of it, as working while not being confident SHOWS and your client will realise immediately that you are stretching your ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david.elsbury Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 Regarding how many PARs to use, if you get a copy of LD Calculator http://www.paul-pelletier.com/LDCalculator...culatorPage.htm there is a photometrics part. So you will be able to work out from the beam angle of the pars, (linky was above) and from the trim height of the rig, how large the pool of light wil be, therefore working out the number of pars you wish to use to get your look. Example:1kW Wide Par64 @ 5mtr and 45 degrees from vertical, = 5.77m max beam at widest point.http://i9.tinypic.com/4mlmhow.jpg HTH, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryansever Posted June 28, 2007 Author Share Posted June 28, 2007 Wow! What a fantastic tool, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Lovelace Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 I would find a company to sub the whole show to. You can be the point person and make a few dollars. Use this as an opportunity to learn as much as you can - like getting payed to go to school. This way, the show should turn out fine and the next time you will be able to sub out less until you have the ability to go it alone. There is nothing like an irate client to ruin your business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woody74 Posted June 28, 2007 Share Posted June 28, 2007 The budget is very limited (around $4000)The whole show, or just lighting? I'd say you'd be lucky to rent just the rigging for that amount (not including the crew to install it)...I now have a macabre fascination with this event; please keep us posted. -w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomo Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 The rigging doesn't seem like it would be too difficult, but as I have no experience with the actual hardware, I'd rather not learn on the job.This is going to sound nasty, but you CANNOT do it yourself. One mistake, and somebody dies.It's that serious. You MUST get an experienced rigger to do this.If you cannot afford to do that, then you cannot afford to do the show at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted June 29, 2007 Share Posted June 29, 2007 You need to get SWL ratings for the points from the venue, and full dimensions accurately plotted. Then you need to calculate all the loads applied to the points, and check all are within ratings. A rigger will do this better and faster! Your drawings should be good enough to measure all the cable lengths from. The truss will need specifying to take the load over the spans, your rigger will check all this. Rigging is not difficult! Just start with the artistic design and the realistic design, calculate all the loadings and spans, check against manufacturers tables, and repeat til you have a safe working realisation of the artists design. Then you have to work out how to actually do the lift, with motors, and points, and all the cables and luminaires. Actually doing the lift is simple once you have designed it properly. -and that's the bit that needs a skilled rigger! Remember also that your guests are rich /important enough to be invited to buy couture so ensure that your PLI is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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