China's Glowing!!!!

[RobOwen]

Fine Art is a new brand of lighting that comes from China. In fact, they are the Chinese version of Martin etc. If you'd like to see the quality of build then PM me. I don't think you will fault them.

 

The only things the Chinese can't get right yet is the optics (colours, lenses, reflectors etc). So Fine Art import them from ODL in Italy (same as Martin).

 

The Chinese are on the wrong side of the planet, speak the wrong langauge and have a bad reputation from years ago. They had to sort their act out before Malasia and India stole their markets, so they have. There is some absolute rubbish coming in from China, but if you don't buy the cheapest thing you can find then you should be OK.

 

I also import some 250w Moving Heads unbranded. They are cracking units and cheap. One thing to watch out for is to get sufficient parts WHEN you order the product. The parts are cheap so worth the investment. You will have aggrivation getting parts out of factories who basically want to build your batch and then forget about you. They work on hardly any margin purely to get USD$ into the country, so dont want to be messing around with you 9mths later when you have a problem. Even if they do, look at DHLs prices for sending parts and you will find that the shipping of the $5.00 part costs more than the unit did in the first place. I always buy at least 10% parts for my units. Belts, Fans and Lamp holders are a must.

 

Hope that helps

[Jivemaster]

The concept of buying from China is similar to the 70s rules of buying from the Soviet block. You buy what they are selling! It may not be what you expected or agreed. There may or may not ever be any more, or any spares. They may or may not actually comply with CE and any other marks given. (CE means China Export )

 

As the importer you are fully responsible for the product liability, safety compliance and warranty. Spare parts are never available

 

Having your product made in China is different! You give them the designs, then they make them in theory to your spec. Trouble there also is that you GIVE them the design, how many THEY make is not known. Demanding western expected features like batch continuity starts to bring the cost up. Spares will not be available after the batch is finished.

[RobOwen]

Oh and one other thing... say you dont want the showroom samples in China, because you will get palmed off with them if you don't say anything. Some of which would have had considerable use.

 

If you inspect the factory after an order they may point to a load of goods that are supposedly yours. Watch them go into your container (or get a trusted agent to do it) because you can bet your bottom dollar that the goods you see aren't yours and you might be suprised when inferior goods turn up after a month at sea!

[Chris Beesley]

It does also depend on which supplier/manufacturer you are dealing with and how you manage the trading relationship! Even tho materials and labour are cheaper in China there is still a fair price for a product.

[WKENNISON]

Very helpful. Thanks to all of you have replied.

 

I certainly have some homework to do!

[Jonny DMX]

Fine Art is a new brand of lighting that comes from China. In fact, they are the Chinese version of Martin etc. If you'd like to see the quality of build then PM me. I don't think you will fault them.

 

The only things the Chinese can't get right yet is the optics (colours, lenses, reflectors etc).

 

So what if they can build them well! Surly the single most important quality of a lighting fixture is the optics, if they can't get that right then nothing else is important!

[RobOwen]

So what if they can build them well! Surly the single most important quality of a lighting fixture is the optics, if they can't get that right then nothing else is important!

 

 

Thats why we import them. Martin doesn't manufacture the optics either, they buy from ODL as well. It's nothing to be ashamed of out-sourcing production to specialist companies who are geared for building optics. There is no point building a factory making filters and reflectors unless there is a substantial saving. ODL specialise in optics and are well priced so they buy from them.

 

Does the manufacturer of your car make the windscreen? Or even the tyres, they are important.

[musht]

Chinese are in fact pretty good at optics and filters, JDS Uniphase who bought out OCLI, OCLI Dalgety Bay UK, used to make the dichros for Martin, when JDS bought them things were first moved to Canada then China. JDS also make lasers there and Casix, Chinese homegrown company, on of worlds largest solid state laser makers.

Optical design is hard to copy though, not a simple measure and copy operation.

 

Fine Art, www.fine99.com, remembered for making products looking like Martin , looks the same until you switch it on, the Fine 2000 was a MAC2K without the shutters or the understanding.Though possiblity for leaving menus in Chinese had comedy possibilties. ....

 

Moderation: A small edit made to ensure accuracy

[Jonny DMX]

Does the manufacturer of your car make the windscreen? Or even the tyres, they are important.

 

A good point well made.

[RobOwen]

The FINE 2000 does look a bit like a MAC2K, I cant argue against that. It was certainly a controversial decision making them so similar, but it certainly got them noticed. I disagree that Fine Art has no understanding about moving lights. The latest generation of Fine Art moving lights, the 700, 400, 250 are easily up-to par with the major manufacturers. They are practically silent, quick, accurate and of similar brightness/features to the competition, and reliable. Moving lights, as every one knows, are amazing bits of kit with so many different disiplines involved in the design. High Voltage, Low Voltage, Optical Engineering, Mechanical Engineering, Robotics. They have to be reliable despite the heat they produce, but be quiet also. To build these takes some doing, and I don't think its possible to do that without some understanding.

 

I've only just started distributing Fine Art, and have so far had a brilliant response. I exhibited Fine Art at PALME in Dubai and a good few hire companies out there have purchased from us. The boys over the road at UKSLC.org have had a FINE 700 & FINE 400 for a few weeks to review them. It will be posted over there soon, they certainly didn't think Fine Art have no understanding of how to build moving lights, quite the opposite.

 

A lot of work needs to be done in order to up the image of Fine Art. I remember though that Martin had problems when they started out with moving lights, mainly because people thought they made cheap disco lights.

 

Oh, and the FINE 2000 does have shutters. Are we even talking about the same brand?

 

Edit: Bit of spelling!

 

Perhaps you should have said a MAC2K with the shutters and without the price tag

[musht]

Mebbe it was an earlier version of the Fine 2000 that was lacking shutters , remember them being discussed some time ago on the Lightnetwork because of the external similarity to the Martin unit.

 

Think it does raise questions with western buyers when a product is designed so closely to look externally like a major brand product. There are some designs of Chinese made moving lites that are very distinctive, so if the product continues to perform well in service, the unique design of housing will help reinforce that unique brand image.

 

History relates that whilst the Chinese were building palaces and enjoying fireworks shows, us Brits were mashing plants in our mud huts for war paint. Sure the Chinese are cutting their teeth by copying and the larger concerns will have learned and understood a lot. Just like the Japanese used to make cheap transistor radios and pressed steel utility motorcycles, Sony and Honda for example.

 

Martin have a had long climb from a mid range smoke machine maker, but at least they`ve kept their logo and product design distinctive...

 

Competition is good , just be nice to be able to tell the competitors apart ;-)

[RobOwen]

Totally valid point. The new generation of Fine Art heads have completely unique housings. At the end of the day its not the outside that counts, its the internals. The FINE 2000 housing is different, but admitedly only just.

 

The FINE 2000 was Fine Art's, rather good, attempt at getting the west to take note. The design was perhaps in hindsight a mistake, but all those involved in that decision are aware of this. The product underneath though is well designed and can compete with a MAC2K.

 

I haven't read that thread about the 2000 on lightnetwork. Although I will say this, I had a few people at PALME who had been under the impression the FINE 2000 sounded like a helicopter. A quick demo soon solved this, but it shows that some people are trying to actively resist new brands making an entrance by basically making rubbish up about them, perhaps these anonymous people are linked with manufacturers?

 

And as for copying ideas, I recall Martin not being able to sell in America due to Vari-Lite filing a patent breach law-suit. I think Martin settled out of court. Just proves it's not limited to the Chinese.

[musht]

Thanks for the straight answers, look forward to reading the reviews over at ukslc.

 

Its always flattering when people feel threatened enough by your product to make up stories ;-)

 

VariLite went through a stage of suing everyone including Martin and High End over fundamental moving lite principles.

High End Intellabeam was a deliberate copy of the Clay Paky Goldenscan.

Roboscan 518 was counterfeited by Chinese factories back in day, right down to fake Martin QC labels.

[RobOwen]

Just to let you know, that review has been posted on UKSLC.org.

 

Click Here for Review

[Guest lightnix]

I have a number of Chinese Source 4 copies called Moonlight 750's. Unfortunately they forgot to drill the hole for the 750 pin so you can't use an HPL 750...

IIRC that humble little pin is protected by a very well-enforced patent :) Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

For the last few months, I've been quietly settling into a new full time position and as it happens, I'm working for a manufacturer. All our products are made in-house, with components from "original" manufacturers and PCBs sourced locally. When I asked about Chinese manufacturing, I got a reply I've heard from other people in different fields...

 

The first problem with China, is that while a manufacturer may produce 110% perfect demo examples and first runs, they sometimes / often cheat; by gradually substituting components of lesser quality, in order to boost their margins. It probably won't make much difference if you substitute 1% tolerance for 2% tolerance resistors; but when you do it and slightly reduce the thickness of the copper on the PCBs and use a slightly lighter gauge steel for the casing and... you get my drift ;) It all adds up to make a less reliable product which doesn't perform as well.

 

The second problem is, that the Chinese are master forgers of just about anything you can imagine. My uncle trades in antiques (real ones - from biblical and medieval times - not the tat you get on AR). He told me not long ago, that sections of the market are in a state of near collapse; because it is now almost completely impossible to verify the provenance of certain kinds of item - the forgers skills have reached almost molecular level. I heard very much the same thing from a gemologist - he would only from a very few trusted sources in China, because there were so many forgeries in China, both of precious and semi-precious stones.

 

The upshot is, that even if you do find a totally honest Chinese manufacturer, they may themselves fall victim to a forged parts / materials scam, along with their distributors. It's tricky enough if you're a big manufacturer with well established brands, but for smaller companies that kind of thing can spell the end and quickly, too :)

 

The ultimate problem though IMO, lies with the consumer; for they are every bit as greedy, short-termist and self-deluding as any fat-cat industrialist. Time and time and time again, they get their fingers (or worse) burnt buy cheap, crappy kit; but there they are again, the very next day, queueing up for more of the same, in ever-increasing quantities. Well-established market research says that The Consumer per se, prefers a smaller, but more immediate short term saving to a larger, but longer term one; so who's to blame in the end?

 

As P. T. Barnum said... :D