bully Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 I stumbled on this forum daydreaming about buying some d&b gear, finding a very lively debate regarding using other amps with a d&b rig - having been on their course and being a big fan it was great to see so many other people passionate about these great speakers. I run a one man PA Hire business which is just moving into its second summer - my main rig is 2 dynacord c150 high and mid range speakers with 2 F8 subwoofers powered by two yamaha p7000 amps with an active crossover. I have a 24 track mackie desk with a 4 way monitor mix with jbl jrx 112s - dbx 31 channel eq's for FOH and monitors. With some of the work I do now this system is pushed to the limit - especially when touring band engineers are using the kit. I bought this FOH for £2500 (amps new and speakers 2nd hand but used twice or something) a year ago and can sell it for £2000 now. Would 4 grand get me any better 2nd hand FOH ? Thanks for your time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_hate_fisicks Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Probably, yes. Take a look round the second hand dealers (Bonza, Crystal Pro, LMC, Concert Systems), and see if they've got anything that might fit your bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trunker Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Check out KV speakers. They are active, but VERY efficient and well worth the money. The EX range with 12" tops and double 15" bins will give you over 4k (rms) (I would run 4 tops and 2 bins). You should be able to get a good price brand new. I would go and have a listen to these as they will become popular very soon and then the prices will go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete McCrea Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 I think the OP meant 4K in terms of £4000 not 4000watts. Try somewhere like Bob Kelly's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 I'd suggest you look at what equipment you need to serve your market, and determine what will be your upgrade path. You can buy more equipment for £4k, but it may not solve your present problems. If you want to increase the quality - but do similar jobs, then you may well find a reasonable system for 4k. If it's an issue of sound pressure level, you'll need to either hire in extra kit for the louder gigs, or buy into the professional end of the market. Here, you could be talking about £1.5k to £3k per loudspeaker, plus amps plus processors. It can easily cost tens of thousands - even second hand. You won't be able to do the same gigs and charge the same money.... Lastly, see if there any other similar are larger sized operations in your area. It can often be worth buying the same type of boxes so that there's the possibility of cross rental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 What you really have to decide is whether to buy more and charge more, or to run at the level you have pitched now. Its THIS decision that governs whether to buy bigger. If your clients will pay more for more then OK, If your clients just want the same again next year, that's what they will want to pay for. In some demographic areas you can buy up to buy into more work, in other places buying up will put your prices out of your client's reach. What you cannot do is buy up-market kit and not charge it out adequately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girlyboy Posted June 8, 2007 Share Posted June 8, 2007 Hello It's always worth visiting http://www.concerttrade.com or http://www.gearonline.co.uk Gearonline currently seems to have a large selection of D&B stuff. Hope this helps Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trunker Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 I think the OP meant 4K in terms of £4000 not 4000watts. Try somewhere like Bob Kelly's Oooops. I forgot to mention that you should be able to get a KV rig for £4000. So you should get the two 4k's :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Oooops. I forgot to mention that you should be able to get a KV rig for £4000. So you should get the two 4k's :-) But that may still not meet the very sensible financial constraint that Jive master suggested ;-) To make money with audio gear, you have to follow your business plan, not your heart! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 Someone on here I know makes money out of hiring generic 15+horn rigs to their local bands and djs. Others make money by hiring line arrays to concerts. Both are valid business plans, proven by people on here. Crossing them either way is a business plan for "shot in foot enterprises". No small user wants to pay for a big system, and no-one needing a big system needs the disco speaker system, - Lose Lose situation dont do it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Lewis Posted June 9, 2007 Share Posted June 9, 2007 One more thing.... Getting better quality - especially in one or two boxes a side situations isn't necessarily too hard. In this case, a move from the quite reasonable Dynacords to one of the usual "top" brands should yield benefits, and possibly some increase in SPL. However, you can't hire out top notch kit at pub band prices and keep afloat for too long. Getting rock and roll levels that guest engineers will be happy with can be a little harder. You need multiple boxes that will array correctly, which usually means increased directivity. This then makes them less useful as single boxes. So the loud rock and roll system tends to dictate multiple boxes, often horn loaded in more than just the HF passband to achieve good pattern control and efficiency. The example given above (KV^2 EX series) is a good quality general purpose box, but my calcs show it's about 100dB@1W@1m (good but not that efficient) and it has a 40x80 degree horn (not so good for multi cabinet work). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bully Posted June 10, 2007 Author Share Posted June 10, 2007 thanks for all your replies it seems like I'm at a bit of a cross roads at the moment. I do want to expand and move up the sound engineering ladder. I do have access to a d&b C7 rig but everyone wants something for nothing in this town (Swindon) and the rental cost and petrol driving to bath and back to get it means it would not make business sense to do so. ( At the moment I get £180 and pay my lad £30 to do the get in and get out) I will check out all your leads and see what they offer - I'm also in talks with a guy I've worked with for a couple of years( he owns the C7 rig) to buy a d&b Q1 line array system for 50 grand - 3 subs and 3 tops a side which will be great if it comes off, but wanted to improve my small business at the same time I'll keep you posted with developments thanks again bully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Everybody always wants something for nothing! Trouble is you can't live on nothing! Is there business for the big line array, or is a can of touch-up paint the best investment to keep the old cabs in good visual condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulears Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 My experience of 'upgrading' without listening, is that you often discover that not that much changes. In my venue, I've gradually improved things over the years, at my expense, and rarely find the small increase in charges to the venue to remotely pay the bills. The killer thing for people starting out was mentioned by Simon, but worth reinforcing. Originally 4 EV-SX300s and some subs run from a modest amp, using internal passive crossovers in the subs. Pretty loud, and filled the venue with quite acceptable sound, dor not a huge outlay. Went to a bigger, 3 way system with active crossovers and amps. The original "1500" single amp making way for 3 adding up to label values of 5600, Much better bottom end, much cleaner midrange and not so cutting HF wise - the cymbals didn't slice your head off any more, but oddly, not much louder. If I'd upgraded for volume reasons, I would have been disppointed. For this year, I've added another big system for the centre because the room is far too wide and geting decent sound centre and edges was quite difficult. The amp labels have pretty well been repeated - so I'm on paper waving a large amount of 'watts' around, but the result in the room is that although loud, it's now loud in all the seats, not just some. It's quite funny how deaf some big loudspeakers are, needing large amounts of power to get them moving. We have a pair of the EV's flown from the front trus as a central cluster, and these, powered from a modest amp are quite obvious as they are faded in. SPL is the key, Watts means so little, and even when you find some specs, the dispersion figure cloud the thing even more, as has been pointed out. I heard a demo of the HK Actor system in a dealers and was very impressed with the overall sound and depth. Somebody brought one into the venue, turned the wick up a bit and the impressed feeling went away a bit. Choosing PA is so difficult to do without the kit in your own venue, where you already know how things sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savman Posted June 12, 2007 Share Posted June 12, 2007 I actually own/use the Actor DX rig and I have to say it continues to surprise me. On the back of the Tops you have a Subwoofer Level which you really have to whack up to about 3 o clock before you get the Subs working in any capacity. For an Active system for small-medium events I have to give it a serious recommendation. And for smaller bar work or acoustic stuff I just use the 2 tops. Quite an excellent system, I'd defo consider HK Audio if/when upgrading again. I looked at the dB Tech Forty and Fifty line but they have no wheels on the back of subs and it's not really a flexible rig. The Dynacord gear is probably worth the extra investment if you can justify paying nearly double, but you'd really wanna be making sure you have a solid rental output so the system isn't lying idle every weekend. Another rig to consider is 2 x dB Technolgies Sub15 with either a Mackie srm450 or an RCF ART per side. That could be got quite cheap-ish-ly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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