Pete Alcock Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Dear Blue Room, Saw this article linked to, on a US Pro Sound forum and it seemed relevant to what I guess is common safety practice in the UK. Basically it purports that if you hang relaxed (or injured) in a harness for more than 5 or 10 minutes you risk very serious injury, as the heart is unable to circulate sufficient blood to the brain. You initailly pass out and can eventually die. Trust this is of interest. Pete. Suspension Trauma Document Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 An interesting read. Many thanks Pete for posting it here. Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lightnix Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Of great interest indeed, not to mention scary. I heard about this a few years ago, but have never seen it put in such accessible and detailed terms before. I believe (but am not sure, so don´t quote me) that the problem is more acute with sit harnesses than full body ones. In Germany a regulation was planned (although I´m not sure if it was actually introduced) to make it mandatory for all productions involving aerial rigging to have an Emergency Rigger on site, whose function would be to deal with situations described in the linked article, along with other "sudden situations". It would be really good to see such a rule introduced in the UK / Europe as a whole, although no doubt it would be opposed by corporate interests on grounds of cost :( :( :P Anybody fancy starting a campaign ? The PSA are pretty hot on this kind of thing, I´ll point them at this thread when I get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianl Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 in your risk assesment / method statement for working at height you would of course have a section on the rescue procedure if something should go wrong including a section on the promt rescue of person (posibly unconcious) hanging in a harness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryson Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Yes, I understand that this is very much the case - it came up in both my training for the use of our Genie and frequently when listening to Chris Higgs. Hopefully Chris will pop up and give us an authoritative answer, but as I understand it, this is the case (although I'm unsure as to the exact time figure - that seems a little short) and that's why waiting for the fire brigade isn't a valid rescue strategy for that kind of accident. As for regulation - I'm all for regulation that is helpful - but isn't this actually covered by Risk assessment and the Health and Safety at Work Act? The problem is one of awareness of the hazard, rather than needed a "rule" to cover it. Perhaps there's an alternative control measure that would work. I'd prefer to see people like the PSA, PLASA and the ABTT campaigning to increase awareness of the problem, not requesting proscriptive legislation. (Particularly right now, while it could be unwisely - in my opinion - tacked onto the Work at Height regs.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianl Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 theres a section on this in one of Chris's books, apparantly the time varies between 10 minutes to an hour, a lot less if you are unconcious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mini mansell Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I forget the details but the reason is. there are two arteries running up the inside of your thighs. the harness compresses these arteries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lightnix Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 As for regulation - I'm all for regulation that is helpful Wise words mate, with which I agree in principal, but... It seems that these days, that it is not just enough to do a Risk Assessment, but to be competent (i.e. trained to do it, as well. There was a well reported case a couple of years back, where a warehouse worker was killed in an accident at work and his employers, a major supermarket chain, were fined squillions, because although they had commissioned a whole series of RAs on their operations, the person who they hired to do them was not NIBOSH accredited and therefore not competent to carry out said RAs. The court decided that the supermarket had been negligent in selecting this person to perform the task and were therefore liable. So while I approve of RAs up to a point, it seems to me that they have opened several new cans of worms since their introduction, not to mention being used to legitimise dangerous practices - "Of course it´s safe, it´s been Risk Assessed" The problem is most potentially serious for self-employed freelancers, who have recently been warned by their employ... er, sorry... clients that they may well, as "independent subcontractors, have to start providing their own RAs in future. Bad news all round IMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 The problem is most potentially serious for self-employed freelancers, who have recently been warned by their employ... er, sorry... clients that they may well, as "independent subcontractors, have to start providing their own RAs in future I thought Freelancers had to provide RA's to cover their work already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 This is covered in the draft WAHR. Which I HAVE read, and just about kept myself awake. In all honesty, there should be nothing in it that would worry anyone working with a safe system at the moment. Unless, of course, it's you hanging from a harness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryson Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I forget the details but the reason is. there are two arteries running up the inside of your thighs. the harness compresses these arteries The article linked to suggests that it's a bit more complex than that - (my summing-up, please correct if you don't agree) - the blood "pools" in your lower legs as they rely on muscle contraction (*which you're not doing as ther's no load on the legs)to assist in the return pumping of blood to the heart. The Heart works harder and harder to pump a decreasing supply of blood until it finally gives up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Posted January 23, 2004 Share Posted January 23, 2004 Moderation: Topic split into General forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jivemaster Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Looks as if riggers will have to wear hospital bed socks then. Specially designed to prevent legs swelling when legs are immobile. Aids prevention of deep vein thrombosis in bedridden patients, possibly extends the five minute rescue time to something more practical for a real rescue. Are braked decenders no longer available -- let you fall slowly to the ground. Will someone please explain why my 35Kg swl stand has a STEP, does anyone know a rigger less than 35kilos in weight??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Suspension trauma is an issue that needs to be understood.The HSE printed a contract research document some time ago which gathers a large amount of information that has been known about by some of us for a long time. You can get this from the HSE site. (It is a long document). The reasons for harness trauma are to do with the effect of suspension, the angle at which the person hangs and the restriction in blood circulation before, during and after prolonged suspension in a harness. The effects of the fall with regard to other injury are another factor to consider. Please do not speculate about this condition, find out, get training, whatever.There are many people exposed to this phenomenon now we all use harnesses. The ABTT and PLASA are actively involved with representing our industry with regard to the work at height regs. Hope this helpsChris Higgs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil-galad Posted February 1, 2004 Share Posted February 1, 2004 Chris is correct although I think the more concerning part that needs to be addressed is if you do fall and are unconcious... Who is going to rescue YOU!!! I have done a course on rope rescue and based on the times they were giving to rescue someone before their situation became critical was faster than I could get from one side of a roof to another and get someone to the floor. I vote for the preventative measure and now work almost solely from access equipment such as telescopic boom lifts and scissor lifts. It's very hard to fall out of a basket and if you do manage it then your restraint line was too long in the first place.The other advantage is that if you do fall, your groundsman can get you to the ground within a minute. I am hoping that the new regulations will really put pay to people using climbing as a cheap alternative to hiring in the proper access equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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