Chris_H Posted February 3, 2004 Share Posted February 3, 2004 I may be right, I may be wrong, but if suspended from a harness for a long time, could this also cause something like DVT? (just a thought) :unsure: Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil-galad Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 I think that is a question for your GP to answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Macluskie Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Gil-galad As an IRATA technician I felt I had to reply here Firstly no rope access job should be carried out without a rescue plan and a qualified rescuer. So that puts paid to your question "who will rescue you?". Secondly, I agree with you that climbing should not be seen as a cheap alternative to hiring in the proper access equipment.......... but Rope Access equipment with properly trained personnel IS "Proper Access Equipment" Furthermore it is a growing industry, safe, realtively cheap, inobtrusive and very quick. more info here http://www.irata.org/ Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Firstly no rope access job should be carried out without a rescue plan and a qualified rescuer. So that puts paid to your question "who will rescue you?".I couldn't agree more. While I am not IRATA qualified I have spent a year as a climbing instructor during which I performed my fair share of rescues where students learning to abseil, prusic etc have got 'stuck'. The use of a full body harness does not reduce the risk of this substantially over a sit harness (as used for recreational climbing) however it does reduce the risk of the user becoming inverted in case of a fall and does not have such a reliance on good adjustment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gil-galad Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 I apologize if I gave the wrong impression. I feel that there are many people out there who have not fully considered the rescue side when rigging. I am not sure if many people have considered that they should be using full rope access when they go into a roof to rig. There is much to be said for rope access when it is done properly but I would argue that there many people who are not able to use rope access properly as they are not sufficiently trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 The Management Regs 99 and 92 and the new Work at Height Regs 04 both state that adequate rescue plans must be in place before work starts where a risk exists that may require workers to be left stranded, etc..As with all regs, it is the duty of the employer. If you are self employed you are the employer and have the same legal duty.The rescue does not have to be a 'rope' rescue, but it does need to be quick and one that limits risk to anyone else, for example the rescuer(s). With regard to earlier posts about risk assessment, the law requires the assessment to be suitable, sufficient and up to date.It is legal duty that all work activity is risk assessed and that the effect that the work may have on employees and non-employees is considered.The scope and scale of the assessment needs only to be proportionate to the task.And yes, you would have to risk assess the rescue plans and system............. In order to do an RA you do need to fully understand the work, the hazards and how to deal with them and how any remaining risks need to be controlled.In order to carry out the RA as an administrative task, you need to be comptetent.That means knowing the '5 points' of a risk assessment (see HSE site/publications)and being sufficiently independent to be able to decide if the risks found are significant. If they are, you must record the findings and make them known to the people doing the work or who are exposed to the hazards.There are ways of doing this with matrices, risk scores and ratings which result in a risk being high, medium or low, tolerable or unacceptable, depending on the type. Clearly if a risk is shown to be high, the employer must react to this in order to comply with the HaSaWa and design systems or methods to eliminate or reduce the risk to an acceptable level. Acceptable is what would be considered reasonable under the circumstances prevailing. Real risk of death by falling - real case for spending time and money designing a system so it cannot happen under foreseeable circumstances. Very often, those doing the work know the actual hazards best, and sometimes the best way of avoiding them. They are probably the worst people to decide what constitutes a significant risk - e.g. a rigger expects to work at height, he may not consider that a significant risk. An electrician may work on high voltages but considers it part of his daily risk menu. As a specialist you have a high risk tolerance and appetite of your own environment.The hazards must be eliminated or reduced and if they really can't be controlled any other way, you use PPE.The use of fall arrest systems is therefore the last resort. Restraint systems are the way forward. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted February 9, 2004 Share Posted February 9, 2004 The use of a full body harness does not reduce the risk of this substantially over a sit harness (as used for recreational climbing) however it does reduce the risk of the user becoming inverted in case of a fall and does not have such a reliance on good adjustment. The use of a 'sit' harness is not appropriate for fall arrest at work.To comply with regulations a full harness to EN361 must be used as part of a fall arrest system. This is to ensure that the fallee is suspended such that the effects of harness trauma and other injuries related to harness falls are reduced.In work positioning or restraint systems it may be appropriate to use a sit harness, but if a fall can occur and the only way to mitigate the consequences is to use a fall arrest system, you need to use a harness that allows both fall arrest and work positiong techniques to be used.Sorry I missed this post until now, it is important to know this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 The use of a 'sit' harness is not appropriate for fall arrest at work.To comply with regulations a full harness to EN361 must be used as part of a fall arrest system. This is to ensure that the fallee is suspended such that the effects of harness trauma and other injuries related to harness falls are reduced.In work positioning or restraint systems it may be appropriate to use a sit harness, but if a fall can occur and the only way to mitigate the consequences is to use a fall arrest system, you need to use a harness that allows both fall arrest and work positiong techniques to be used.To give a couple of examples to illustrate Chris's point ... Harnesses like this or this are good for fall arrest only (with a suitable shock-absorbing lanyard). Harnesses like this are for work positioning only. Harnesses like this or this are good for both functions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Macluskie Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 Confused a bit with your post gareth..sorry Rope Acess / Work Positioning. You would have some trouble ascending a line using a croll and ascender with This harness "as is". Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianl Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 Confused a bit with your post gareth..sorry Rope Acess / Work Positioning. You would have some trouble ascending a line using a croll and ascender with This harness "as is". Stevethe work positioning refers to the 2 attachment points on the side of the waistband which allow you to put a lanyard round an item and lean back to work (like the guy up a telegraph pole) at the point where rou are into the rope acces side of work positioning then that would not necesarily be the correct harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Macluskie Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 Yes, I know I was just highlighting that Gareths post may have been a little confusing Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ike Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 The use of a 'sit' harness is not appropriate for fall arrest at work.To comply with regulations a full harness to EN361 must be used as part of a fall arrest system. This is to ensure that the fallee is suspended such that the effects of harness trauma and other injuries related to harness falls are reduced.In work positioning or restraint systems it may be appropriate to use a sit harness, but if a fall can occur and the only way to mitigate the consequences is to use a fall arrest system, you need to use a harness that allows both fall arrest and work positiong techniques to be used.Sorry I missed this post until now, it is important to know this stuff.I agree that to comply with regulations a full harness to EN361 must be used however my point was that a properly adjusted sit harness will cause no more damage than a full body harness when it comes to suspension trauma. There are a few exceptions from the above; if for example the user is of 'large build' a sit harness may appear to be correctly fitted however this may not be the case. I am not saying use a sit harness but simply making the point that if one is correctly fitted it can do the job, in most cases, just as well as a full body harness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gareth Posted February 27, 2004 Share Posted February 27, 2004 Confused a bit with your post gareth..sorry Rope Acess / Work Positioning. You would have some trouble ascending a line using a croll and ascender with This harness "as is". SteveRead my post again - nowhere do I mention rope access, only work positioning in the manner described by IanL ... your confusion obviously stems from reading things which aren't actually there ... :D The harness which you refer to can, I believe, be converted into a full-body harness with the addition of another Petzl product, but I don't know whether this makes it suitable for rope access or simply adds a fall-arrest element to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Macluskie Posted March 1, 2004 Share Posted March 1, 2004 Your quite right Gareth, you didn't mention Rope Access at all. I always assume that I have to get to my work position by using using either Rope Access or by being clipped off i.e. Fall Arrest. Both of these activities would require a full harness. Apologies Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted March 20, 2004 Share Posted March 20, 2004 Firstly no rope access job should be carried out without a rescue plan and a qualified rescuer. So that puts paid to your question "who will rescue you?".I couldn't agree more. While I am not IRATA qualified I have spent a year as a climbing instructor during which I performed my fair share of rescues where students learning to abseil, prusic etc have got 'stuck'. The use of a full body harness does not reduce the risk of this substantially over a sit harness (as used for recreational climbing) however it does reduce the risk of the user becoming inverted in case of a fall and does not have such a reliance on good adjustment. Please explain this statement, I still do not understand your point. It will do greater damage because it does not support the body or spread load over the body during the fall in the same way as a full harness, neither does it allow the fallee to be suspended at the preferred angle (>50 degrees) after the fall. There is research on this and the HSE published their document last year (detrails elsewhere in a post, I think). I am not aware of DVT being a concern. Do you find your experience as a climbing instructor is of value in your work environment? You are listed as being 19 and working as a casual in Manchester venues, which presumably means you worked in outdoor ed. straight after leaving school. I would be interested to know your views on suspension trauma as a hazard at work. I worked the roof at GMex on and off for a few years in the 80's and many of the locals had little or no height safety training. Anyone else who has a view on harness trauma, please get in touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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